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Message
re: Interesting how "Evangelicals" are separating themselves from "Protestants".
Posted on 10/7/25 at 9:21 am to FooManChoo
Posted on 10/7/25 at 9:21 am to FooManChoo
quote:
Traditionally, there have been three aspects to faith: knowledge, assent, and trust.
Where is this in the Bible?
Let's assume for the sake of argument that we accept what you say as true.
How can the deaf, dumb and blind boy named Tommy be Saved? He does not have knowledge, he can't assent and he is not able to trust. Under the Doctrine of Faith Alone, How can he be Saved from the Eternal Grave?
I think your answer might be something like "God will Save him anyway because of Predestination" ?
This post was edited on 10/7/25 at 9:23 am
3
Posted on 10/7/25 at 9:27 am to FooManChoo
quote:
Any works done without the cleansing of Christ’s mediatorial blood by faith are filthy rags and do not merit anything but further condemnation.
So we are doing the same missionary work in Africa, you and I. You turn to me and say
"Any works done without the cleansing of Christ’s mediatorial blood by faith are filthy rags and do not merit anything but further condemnation."
And I answer -
"You and I both have Faith in Christ as our Lord and Savior and there can be no Salvation without this Faith in Christ. I am doing this Missionary work with you not because I expect some reward from Jesus, but only to demonstrate my love for my neighbor and because I want to imitate Christ."
Now then, Foo, have I created filthy menstrual rags by doing my work, as you have said? And thereby, have I also only increased the certainty of my Damnation to Hell and only increased the Wrath and Anger of Almighty God with my work and my reasoning?
What say you?
Posted on 10/7/25 at 9:32 am to Mike da Tigah
quote:
Sola Scriptura is the fundamental basis for all Protestants
Sola Scriptura has never aligned with me.
There is so much more to Christianity than just Sacred Scripture. There are Sacred Traditions which include oral traditions and the liturgy and the Magisterium. It never made sense to abandon the Magisterium and Sacred Traditions and only use Sacred Scripture. Magisterium and Sacred Traditions make Sacred Scripture come to life.
I mean, the Bible wasn't commissioned until 396 and the motivation to do so was due to the fact that there was so much inaccurate Christian teachings happening in Christendom prior to the creation of the bible. Those Christian writings that made it into the bible were guided by the Holy Spirit.
Then after the Protestant Reformation in the early 16th century Protestant scholars removed 7 books and said, "nah, these books were never inspired by the Holy Spirit so we are taking them out". And they take out one of the best books, Sirach which is my favorite OT book, lol.
Also interestingly the Didache never made it into the bible in 396 but it is an incredible Christian writing by the disciples around 50 AD.
The Didache is very simple and short. It's like the TL/DR version of the bible. "The Way", which the disciples called themselves used the Didache as part of their writings to spread Christianity. The word "catholic" did not enter the lexicon until approximately 180 AD and at the time the word "catholic" did not carry the meaning it has today. It simply meant "universal".
This post was edited on 10/7/25 at 9:34 am
Posted on 10/7/25 at 9:54 am to GumboPot
I’m a Christian. That’s it.
Posted on 10/7/25 at 9:57 am to Champagne
I know this isn’t directed to me, and for full disclosure, I’m not a Calvinist or Armenian for that matter, but as a follow up, if I stay home and am not on any mission trip, must I do works to receive salvation, retain it, maintain it, demonstrate it, or is faith alone in Christ alone sufficient for salvation? Because this alone tells me who and what I’m trusting in. Am I believing God’s Word, even as Abraham did, or am I believing in what I do, or must do, or should do?
Although faith without works is dead, in that my faith serves no purpose without works to accompany my faith for shining my light before men and God getting the glory, both Paul and the gospels reaffirm throughout throughout scripture that it is faith alone that saves us.
If you read in Matthew 7:21-23
You see the qualifier is doing the will of the Father, and you also see that those saying Lord Lord were bringing what they had done for Him rather than what Christ had done on the cross on their behalf, so they never trusted in Him alone for their salvation.
And in John 6:38-40 we are told exactly what His will is
Although faith without works is dead, in that my faith serves no purpose without works to accompany my faith for shining my light before men and God getting the glory, both Paul and the gospels reaffirm throughout throughout scripture that it is faith alone that saves us.
If you read in Matthew 7:21-23
quote:
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
You see the qualifier is doing the will of the Father, and you also see that those saying Lord Lord were bringing what they had done for Him rather than what Christ had done on the cross on their behalf, so they never trusted in Him alone for their salvation.
And in John 6:38-40 we are told exactly what His will is
quote:
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
This post was edited on 10/7/25 at 10:00 am
Posted on 10/7/25 at 10:17 am to Champagne
quote:You misunderstand. Election is part of God's plan of redemption, but faith is the instrumental cause that receives the benefits of Christ's sacrifice. Even that faith is a gift according to the grace of God.
You answer moves a bit away from "Faith Alone" and returns to your belief in Double Predestination. You mention that "God's Elect" will have Faith Alone injected into them by God, even if they can never be "Faith Alone" in the conventional adult manner. You say that Double Predestination Saves those who cannot assent and intellectually accept the Doctrine of Faith Alone.
Have we found an exception to the Rule of Faith Alone here? A blind, deaf and dumb boy named Tommy has never heard of Jesus, or religion. He doesn't know what day it is or what Praying is. How can he be Saved by Faith Alone? Are you saying that God will Save him anyway? God will simply inject the required "Faith Alone" medicine and Save Tommy. That is your answer. But Tommy's Faith Alone journey is nothing like Foo's Faith Alone journey. In order to Save Tommy under Faith Alone, we have to invent a real "twist" in the logic of how Faith Alone works.
I will now argue the point that Tommy has found an exception to the Doctrine of Faith Alone. I will additionally make the point that Foo himself has declared that the Predestination Doctrine must be tacked on to the Doctrine of Faith Alone in order to Save Tommy and others like him.
Faith Alone + Predestination = Salvation is the Foo Equation.
I thought it was "Faith Alone".
We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for God's glory alone. Those are 4 of the 5 solas that were formulated during the Reformation according to the Scripture's teaching on justification.
Faith is a resting and trusting in Christ and His benefits, and it is a gift from God according to His grace. God can grant that gracious gift to whomever He chooses, including infants or to the blind, deaf, and dumb. It's His gift to bestow, but the normative way He saves is through the preaching and hearing of the gospel in conjunction with the regenerating work of the Spirit to make a person both capable of believing and even inclined to believe to the point that they will believe.
I think you're confusing concepts here and thinking that I'm adding to faith alone. Again, faith is the instrumental cause of justification, not predestination/election.
Posted on 10/7/25 at 10:18 am to Champagne
quote:How can it both be said that merit is required but salvation is by faith alone. The Catholic Church professes both.
How are they not reconciled?
Posted on 10/7/25 at 10:20 am to Esquire
quote:Well that's just a false statement if I've ever seen one.
This is why Calvinism is the laziest form of Christianity. Do whatever you want because God will stop you if you were meant to go to heaven.
No where does the Bible (Calvinism is biblical, mind you) claim that we are to sit back and not do anything. Calvinism doesn't teach laziness in the faith, and it's not even a logical conclusion of Calvinism. What you're describing has historically been called "hyper Calvinism", which asserts that since God has ordained all things, that man doesn't need to do anything at all, even preach the gospel to others.
God is both a God of means and ends. While He ordains that all His elect will be saved and never fall away, He also provides the means to accomplish that, including the means of grace He provides through the Church, and the restraining and preserving work of His Spirit. Christians are supposed to "work out [our] salvation with fear and trembling", repenting of sin and turning to Christ continually. There's nothing lazy in that.
Posted on 10/7/25 at 10:21 am to Champagne
quote:I attend a Baptist church. Again, I am not criticizing Catholics or the Catholic Church. I am addressing certain theological proclivities in the Catholic documentation and history
Could you please be good enough to reveal your own particular church and Christian denomination?
Posted on 10/7/25 at 10:21 am to Champagne
quote:I attend a Baptist church. Again, I am not criticizing Catholics or the Catholic Church. I am addressing certain theological proclivities in the Catholic documentation and history
Could you please be good enough to reveal your own particular church and Christian denomination?
Posted on 10/7/25 at 10:22 am to gaetti15
quote:I'm not a student
Alright seminary student
The Catholic Church maintains that salvation is through faith but merit is also required. How is that not contradictory?
Posted on 10/7/25 at 10:25 am to Champagne
quote:Tricked? I don't know. Misled? Deceived? Lied to? Potentially all of those things. You have been told that faith is not the lone instrument of justification, and therefore you believe a falsehood. However you came to believe such a thing, I don't know.
Have I been tricked?
quote:Each individual work is judged by God according to whether or not the worker is trusting in Christ alone by faith alone. That was the point of the verses I listed previously, to show that even good works done absent saving faith are not acceptable by God, but are sinful.
Let's examine further by amplifying our hypothetical scenario.
You and I are on the same mission doing missionary work in Africa. We are doing The Lord's Work. We both believe that Jesus is our Lord and Savior.
You say to me that "If you believe that your good works here in Africa contribute something to your Salvation in addition to what Christ has done, you have been tricked."
My answer: "Have I been tricked, Foo? I do this work of the Lord not because I expect something from the Lord in return. I do the Lord's Work ONLY to demonstrate my love for the Lord. I do the Lord's Work, not expecting anything in return, but only to imitate the Lord Himself. I do this work because I love my neighbor as myself."
So the issue isn't about your particular motivations about the specific works you are doing in the moment, but whether or not those works are acceptable to God or not, and that depends on whether or not you are trusting in Christ's saving work by faith alone.
If justification is by faith in Christ alone, and you reject that teaching and believe that faith and works both contribute or merit justification, then I don't believe you are justified. If you are not justified, then none of your works are ultimately "good" in God's eyes.
quote:Again, I believe you have been deceived, and maybe even self-deceived. I don't know the cause of the deception ultimately, but I urge you to put your trust in Jesus Christ alone for your right standing before God.
Foo, have I been tricked, then, because I no longer believe in Faith Alone?
Posted on 10/7/25 at 10:26 am to Champagne
quote:It doesn't say that in the Bible. That's history.
Are you speculating here? Where in the Bible does it say that?
I hope you aren't insinuating that if it's not in the Bible, then I shouldn't believe it, because that's not what sola scriptura teaches.
Posted on 10/7/25 at 10:29 am to gaetti15
quote:That's an ordinance, not a sacrament. It wasn't administered by an ordained Catholic priest.
Pretty sure he did at least baptism
quote:Also an ordinance. At no point in scripture is transubstantiation even hinted at nor was the alleged eucharist administered by an ordained Catholic priest.
the oldest recounting of the institution of the Eucharist is found in Corinthians
The Catholic Church is astonishingly good at brainwashing
Posted on 10/7/25 at 10:37 am to Champagne
quote:quote:
Traditionally, there have been three aspects to faith: knowledge, assent, and trust.
Where is this in the Bible?
That understanding is taken from passages such as Rom 10:14,17 and Heb 11:6 (knowledge); Jas 2:19 and Jn 3:33 (assent); and Jn 1:12 and Gal 2:20 (personal trust).
I like how the Heidelberg Catechism summarizes it in question 21 on what true faith is:
True faith is not only a sure knowledge whereby I hold for truth all that God has revealed to us in His Word, but also a hearty trust, which the Holy Spirit works in me by the Gospel, that not only to others, but to me also, forgiveness of sins, everlasting righteousness, and salvation are freely given by God, merely of grace, only for the sake of Christ’s merits
quote:That saving trust in Christ is one that God grants to an individual. Typically that happens in conjunction with the preaching of the gospel, but God can provide that grace of trusting faith through extraordinary means as He chooses.
Let's assume for the sake of argument that we accept what you say as true.
How can the deaf, dumb and blind boy named Tommy be Saved? He does not have knowledge, he can't assent and he is not able to trust. Under the Doctrine of Faith Alone, How can he be Saved from the Eternal Grave?
I think your answer might be something like "God will Save him anyway because of Predestination" ?
This post was edited on 10/7/25 at 12:09 pm
Posted on 10/7/25 at 10:39 am to Champagne
quote:I think I already answered this. Yes, your works are as filthy rags if you are not doing them with a saving trust in Jesus Christ alone. And yes, if you do not repent and trust in Christ alone for your salvation, then you only increase God's wrath.
So we are doing the same missionary work in Africa, you and I. You turn to me and say
"Any works done without the cleansing of Christ’s mediatorial blood by faith are filthy rags and do not merit anything but further condemnation."
And I answer -
"You and I both have Faith in Christ as our Lord and Savior and there can be no Salvation without this Faith in Christ. I am doing this Missionary work with you not because I expect some reward from Jesus, but only to demonstrate my love for my neighbor and because I want to imitate Christ."
Now then, Foo, have I created filthy menstrual rags by doing my work, as you have said? And thereby, have I also only increased the certainty of my Damnation to Hell and only increased the Wrath and Anger of Almighty God with my work and my reasoning?
What say you?
Posted on 10/7/25 at 10:47 am to somethingdifferent
quote:
That's an ordinance
Had to look up what the shite that was, dont speak protty
forgive my ignorance. But this link summarizes my opinion on the subject
striping Sacraments down to Ordinances
Posted on 10/7/25 at 10:50 am to Champagne
quote:Is God omniscient? If so, then God knows how each and every person will/would respond to a gospel presentation. God knows us perfectly before we're even born
how can a severely mentally disabled infant who is in a coma manage to make it to Heaven by being saved by Faith Alone?
Which goes back to the issue I've discussed about salvation from the Catholic perspective. If a person is baptized as an infant, does the Catholic Church even believe that person still needs to respond to a gospel call? If not, that's heresy and that's why the anabaptists were "rebaptizing" people, because they better understood God's word. The sacraments confer no special grace upon a person even when administered by ordained clergy. That is a terrible misrepresentation of scripture.
quote:If God knows that a person will answer a gospel call, are you saying that omniscient/omnipotent God will allow that person to be led astray? The question makes no sense. It's essentially saying if God is God, is he also not God?
What if a person believes that Faith in Jesus Christ Alone leads to Salvation but has been tricked or somehow persuaded that in addition to Faith Alone, the person must always wear unmatched socks
Posted on 10/7/25 at 11:08 am to gaetti15
quote:ehh. Paul said "i consider it rubbish" and "what a wretched man I am"
This pertains to a particular historical situation, not to a general condition
quote:You are not a good Catholic. Extra ecclesiam nulla salus
we do not perform good works in order to enter a state of justification
The church provides the authorized sacraments and the duly ordinated clergy. Outside of that, there is no salvation
Posted on 10/7/25 at 11:15 am to LockDown
quote:Faith has been traditionally defined as assensus, notitia and fiducia. In order to arrive at that faith, a person has to be fundamentally converted by an acknowledgement of their sinfulness against a holy and righteous God. The HS changes a person's heart. They are truly "born again" or "born from above"
What is the demarcation between merely intellectual and "saving and changing?"
You will know that person because the evidence will be obvious. Their life is then characterized by service to the lord
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