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re: Interesting how "Evangelicals" are separating themselves from "Protestants".
Posted on 10/7/25 at 2:53 pm to Champagne
Posted on 10/7/25 at 2:53 pm to Champagne
quote:No, I did not. I know the difference between God's election and God's justification by the gift of faith. I explained that to you after you accused me of adding to justification by faith alone.
Foo conflated these two things, not me.
I hope you are more clear on what I'm saying now.
0
Posted on 10/7/25 at 3:03 pm to LockDown
quote:It's by good and necessary consequence from the Scriptures.
Pertaining to the Scripture references, it still doesn't come across where the demarcation of faith and "saving" faith is located. The catechism you quoted arrives at a conclusion but doesn't bridge the chasm.
Simply put, we are told simultaneously that we are saved by faith apart from works (Rom 3:28) and by works, not by faith alone (Js 2:24).
The only way to reconcile these two things according to the context of each is that there is a type of faith that saves and a type of faith that doesn't save. One type of faith has good works as an evidence, while another type of faith doesn't. James tells us that there is a type of faith that the demons have that doesn't save, and that can't be the same as the faith Christians have. Logically speaking, there must be some difference. Given that Jesus taught that you can know a tree by its fruit, and a good tree will produce good fruit, we can see that a saving faith is one that is evidenced by good works, as James describes, while a non-saving faith is one that even the demons have, which does not produce good works.
After reviewing the totality of the Scriptures, theologians over the past 500 years at least have landed on the difference between an intellectual knowledge only and a heart-knowledge that moves from the head to the heart and hands. The demons have this head knowledge but no heart knowledge. The typical Christian has both if they are saved.
This post was edited on 10/7/25 at 4:12 pm
Posted on 10/7/25 at 3:11 pm to MurphyGator
Religion is all about control, and also very profitable.
Posted on 10/7/25 at 3:15 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
After reviewing the totality of the Scriptures, theologians over the past 500 years at least have landed on the difference between an intellectual knowledge only and a heart-knowledge that moves from the head to the heart. The demons have this head knowledge but no heart knowledge. The typical Christian has both if they are saved.
Just the past 500 huh?
Posted on 10/7/25 at 3:18 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
I hope that clarifies what I'm saying.
So, when we are Saved by Faith Alone we are Saved because God chose us to be Saved before we were born. Also, Faith Alone is injected into our Souls by God, if we are one of God's Elect. If we are not one of God's Elect, we are Condemned even if we are the deaf, dumb and blind kid named Tommy.
Tommy is Saved if he is one of God's Elect and Tommy is condemned if he is not one of God's Elect.
Why does it seem to me like this notion of Faith Alone salvation relies completely on whether a kid like Tommy is one of God's Elect or not? I mean, if Tommy is not one of God's Elect, Tommy is Condemned to Hell. In that respect Tommy is like me - I am also Condemed to Hell unless I'm one of God's elect, right?
Posted on 10/7/25 at 4:02 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
I hope that clarifies what I'm saying
Yes thanks for the clarification.
I also would like to ask you - You say that "all have sinned" and I would like you to clarify how Tommy, the deaf, dumb and blind kid, has sinned.
Posted on 10/7/25 at 4:03 pm to gaetti15
quote:The RCC codified the Marian teachings into dogma only within the last 200 years. Would you say that those were new innovations, or clarifying teaching that you believe has been part of the deposit of the faith from the beginning?
Just the past 500 huh?
The clarification of faith that I'm discussing is in the Bible, but has been expounded and brought to clarity over time.
Posted on 10/7/25 at 4:08 pm to Champagne
quote:Yes, that's what election is (Eph 1:3-5).
So, when we are Saved by Faith Alone we are Saved because God chose us to be Saved before we were born.
quote:Yes. God chooses whom He will save. That was the point of Romans 9 that Paul was getting at. Some are chosen unto salvation, and some--like Pharoah--are chosen for destruction that God's glory may be amplified.
Also, Faith Alone is injected into our Souls by God, if we are one of God's Elect. If we are not one of God's Elect, we are Condemned even if we are the deaf, dumb and blind kid named Tommy.
quote:Correct, though that salvation is applied at the time of regeneration and faith/repentance, not upon the moment of election from eternity past.
Tommy is Saved if he is one of God's Elect and Tommy is condemned if he is not one of God's Elect.
quote:Ultimately, that's correct. God's sovereign choice in election is what determines, in the final analysis, whether He will save one person or another. The gift of faith is the instrument that God uses to apply the benefits of Christ to the elect sinner.
Why does it seem to me like this notion of Faith Alone salvation relies completely on whether a kid like Tommy is one of God's Elect or not? I mean, if Tommy is not one of God's Elect, Tommy is Condemned to Hell. In that respect Tommy is like me - I am also Condemed to Hell unless I'm one of God's elect, right?
Posted on 10/7/25 at 4:10 pm to Champagne
quote:Well, God, through Paul, said that (Rom 3:23), but yes, I also repeat what Paul said.
I also would like to ask you - You say that "all have sinned"
quote:Fist, he has sinned in Adam, due to original sin. Second, he has his own particular sins that he is responsible for, whether they are evil thoughts or actions (probably not words, since he's dumb).
and I would like you to clarify how Tommy, the deaf, dumb and blind kid, has sinned.
Posted on 10/7/25 at 4:12 pm to Champagne
quote:
If we are not one of God's Elect
"Whosoever will call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Posted on 10/7/25 at 4:13 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
The RCC codified the Marian teachings into dogma only within the last 200 years. Would you say that those were new innovations, or clarifying teaching that you believe has been part of the deposit of the faith from the beginning?
Hail mary full of grace the lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy mary mother of God pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Posted on 10/7/25 at 4:14 pm to DiamondDog
quote:If I say "whosoever will dunk this basketball on a regulation-sized goal will get a cookie", does that mean everyone can get a cookie?
"Whosoever will call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Posted on 10/7/25 at 4:15 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
The clarification of faith that I'm discussing is in the Bible, but has been expounded and brought to clarity over time.
Yeah but just the most recent 500 years in the most important development of theology for Christianity right?
Posted on 10/7/25 at 4:19 pm to gaetti15
quote:I'd say it's been a rather significant period for development, yes.
Yeah but just the most recent 500 years in the most important development of theology for Christianity right?
Posted on 10/7/25 at 4:22 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
I'd say it's been a rather significant period for development, yes.
Gotcha
Posted on 10/7/25 at 4:38 pm to LockDown
quote:THERE IT IS. FINALLY
This assumes that all teaching must be in Scripture, and only found in scripture
Someone was honest and admitted it's all made up by people. It has no authority whatsoever and Catholics/EOs are ok with that. I have met many, many Catholics and they just want someone to tell them what to think. They don't want to dust off the good book and have to wrestle with God's truths for themselves. It's too much work darn it!
To address your comment specifically, you're saying something can have divine authority over you even though you have NO IDEA if it's actually from God since it's from outside God's word. WOW
quote:?? You're asking me to prove that God's word is authoritative? Have you not read the words of Jesus? What about false teachers? Unbelievable.
Again, I ask, where is this? You attack your opponents' premise without proving your own
quote:1. Prove that those teachings were different from what's already in scripture. You can't. 2. Prove that those teachings became precisely what the catholic church ended up looking like. 3. Prove that those teachings are indispensable to salvation.
Do we not know from John's epilogue that there are teachings of Jesus Christ not written in scripture?
Again, you're saying that God knew all people would need all of the immense volumes of catholicity for salvation but neglected to have the authors include them in the Bible but instead we're left with "trust us bro"?
How can you be serious with this?
Posted on 10/7/25 at 4:40 pm to LockDown
quote:The job of the HS is to testify to Christ, as in "this is what a Christ like life looks like"
Does the guidance of the Holy Spirit as outlined in John 14 take a lower position?
The job of the HS in NOT to make up a bunch of unbiblical stuff like purgatory and Mary worship and praying to saints and transubstantiation and on and on and on
Posted on 10/7/25 at 4:41 pm to Mo Jeaux
quote:Really? That's interesting. I'm willing to listen to your evidence
The scriptures too are made up, man made stuff
Posted on 10/7/25 at 4:45 pm to Champagne
quote:Have you heard of Molinism or middle knowledge? God can know who will respond without infringing upon freewill. As for your hypothetical person, does God make mistakes? No. Then no person who is justified will ever be condemned. He knows us perfectly
Why does it seem to me like this notion of Faith Alone salvation relies completely on whether a kid like Tommy is one of God's Elect or not? I mean, if Tommy is not one of God's Elect, Tommy is Condemned to Hell. In that respect Tommy is like me - I am also Condemed to Hell unless I'm one of God's elect, right?
Posted on 10/7/25 at 4:47 pm to FooManChoo
quote:They'll start talking about doctrinal development next. That's like pouring gas on a blazing building
Would you say that those were new innovations
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