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re: Israel / Hamas in a biblical context - any content recs?
Posted on 10/16/23 at 8:07 am to CorchJay
Posted on 10/16/23 at 8:07 am to CorchJay
quote:
Seems strange the Bible specifically says that Mary will have to accept Jesus as her savior. How could she be without sin?
She referred to Jesus as her God and her Savior. As in, he saved her from ever falling into sin in the first place.
quote:
Not one mention of Mary being sinless, not even close to mentioning it.
Except, as someone else already pointed out, the greek rending of "Full of Grace" literally means sinless.
quote:
John (the most beloved by Jesus and probably the youngest) was Jesus's brother.
John was the son of Zebedee and Salome.
Again, you continue to get basic elementary level facts totally wrong.
1
Posted on 10/16/23 at 8:09 am to SkiUtah420
quote:
any links/ book suggestions that explore and explain this dichotomy in further detail
First I’d say get a good Bible like the Catholic edition of the English Standard Version. You’ll want it for the sake of comparison and looking things up for yourself. You might also get a King James Version as well so you can compare and contrast. The ESV is a better translation because it primarily is based on the Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls. The KJV is primarily based on the Masoretic text. If you don’t know what those are you should look them up.
Additional book recommendations:
1. The Unseen Realm (Heiser)
2. Who Wrote the Bible (Friedman)
3. The Great Angel (Barker)
4. The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth (Allegro)
5. Seventy (Lawrence)
For more learning, I like books by Robert Price, Bart Ehrman, Richard Carrier, and James Tabor.
Posted on 10/16/23 at 8:11 am to CorchJay
quote:
James, John, Joseph, Judas (not that Judas) were all Jesus's brothers as in genetic brothers. he also had 2 unnamed sisters.
James and Joseph were both sons of Alphaeus and Mary (sister to Mary the mother of Jesus). Jude is universally regarded by New Testament scholars as either a cousin of Jesus or son of Joseph from a previous marriage.
Posted on 10/16/23 at 8:11 am to Foch
quote:quote:
Only Jesus is sinless. Mary was just a vessel
quote:
You have arrived at this conclusion through a man-made interpretation of the scriptures.
Even the Catholic Encyclopedia, when speaking of The Immaculate Conception says, “No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture.”
So where does this believe come from? It basically came to fruition based on the logic that if Mary had been born with original sin, then Jesus would have inherited that sinful nature from Mary. (Question: Didn’t Mary’s mother need to be sinless as well so she wouldn’t pass on original sin to Mary?)
Therefore, they came up with “The Immaculate Conception,” teaching that Mary was born without “original sin,” and remained sinless her whole life. On December 8, 1854, Pope Pius IX, declared this as Catholic doctrine. While this was not the first time that the Catholic church had taught on the sinlessness of Mary, it wasn’t an official Papal decree until this point.
OK! So, why couldn’t Mary have been sinless?
From the Book of Luke:
First, (Lk 2:22-24) states that after the birth of Jesus, Mary undertook purification rituals to make herself clean. She did this in accordance with Old Testament law (Lev 12:2-8). The law stated that purification after birth took 40 days after having a boy (80 days for a girl). At the end of the 40 days (or 80), (Lev 12:6-7) said that a woman must do this: “And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, FOR A SIN OFFERING, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest: (7) Who shall offer it before the Lord, AND MAKE ATONEMENT FOR HER; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This is the law for her that hath born a male or a female."
Mary performed this ritual, with her sacrifice being “A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons” (Lk 2:24). If Mary was born without sin, why did she undergo this purification ritual to be made clean, and for her atonement?
Secondly, (Lk 1:46-47) says, “And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, (47) And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my SAVIOUR." Why did Mary need a Saviour if she was sinless?
The Bible makes it plain over and over that apart from Jesus, ALL men (and women; which would include Mary) who have lived on this planet are sinners (Rom 3:10,23)(Eccl 7:20)(1 Jn 1:8,10)(Prov 20:9). Only God is sinless.
Posted on 10/16/23 at 8:14 am to Stitches
There are 2 Johns. Many of the men in the bible share common names. That's why you must read the bible to understand the bible.
anyway he's strong's concordance of the meaning of grace... if you don't trust strong's then I don't know how to help you... link attached
Grace
Says nothing about Grace meaning or even implying sinlessness
anyway he's strong's concordance of the meaning of grace... if you don't trust strong's then I don't know how to help you... link attached
Grace
Says nothing about Grace meaning or even implying sinlessness
Posted on 10/16/23 at 8:16 am to CorchJay
quote:
What you Catholic dummies don't understand is Church wasn't a building or a denomination. It was any believer... any Christian belongs to the Church
As we've already pointed out to you countless times, Ignatius of Antioch, a disple of John (whom you already stated was the closest to Jesus), said otherwise. According to him, the church was a visible and hierarchical institution that had already been in existence for over 70 years when he wrote the Letter to the Smyrnaeans in 110AD.
Ignatius' disciple, Irenaeus, stated that the surest source of orthodox teaching came from the visible and hierarchical church that was located in Rome.
Posted on 10/16/23 at 8:21 am to FooManChoo
quote:
Christ's reign
He could've ended it when Eve ate the apple or, when Cain killed Abel and started over. The strategy was so flawed.
There's only one response bad folks understand.
Posted on 10/16/23 at 8:23 am to LetTheTigerOut
quote:
Even the Catholic Encyclopedia, when speaking of The Immaculate Conception says, “No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture.”
Catholics don't believe in sola scriptura, as this is a doctrine of the reformation 1500+ years after Christ ascended.
quote:
OK! So, why couldn’t Mary have been sinless?
From the Book of Luke:
First, (Lk 2:22-24) states that after the birth of Jesus, Mary undertook purification rituals to make herself clean.
Jesus obeyed the law as well. Did so perfectly, as a matter of fact. Does that make Him a sinner?
quote:
The Bible makes it plain over and over that apart from Jesus, ALL men (and women; which would include Mary) who have lived on this planet are sinners
This would include Jesus if that's what that verse meant, because he was both fully God and fully man
Also, scripture says that John the Baptist baptized ALL of Judea. But we know that didn't literally happen.
Posted on 10/16/23 at 8:23 am to Stitches
No protestant outside of Orthodox follows Ignatius. So I've already told you what I think of the "early church fathers"...
Ever studied the Peso family. The Flavians? Just wondering
Give me some documents that aren't "roman" and I'll put some thought into it
Ever studied the Peso family. The Flavians? Just wondering
Give me some documents that aren't "roman" and I'll put some thought into it
Posted on 10/16/23 at 8:24 am to CorchJay
quote:
There are 2 Johns. Many of the men in the bible share common names.
Yes, but you were referring specifically to John the disciple....who was the son of Zebedee and Salome. Now you're contradicting yourself.
Posted on 10/16/23 at 8:29 am to Stitches
quote:
Catholics don't believe in sola scriptura
And Protestants do. And no it's not the doctrine of the reformation. There were other denominations all during the 1500 years prior to 1500. Some made it some didn't but the influence was always out there. Like I mention prior there were anabaptist "churches" before the Catholic church. And no anabaptist has no affiliation with Baptist of today. So keep telling yourself that everyone believed the same thing.
The Roman Papacy destroyed anything that didn't provide himself more power and that goes with documentation and/or people.
Posted on 10/16/23 at 8:29 am to CorchJay
quote:
No protestant outside of Orthodox follows Ignatius. So I've already told you what I think of the "early church fathers"...
Yes, I'm aware that you think the people who were ordained by the disciples themselves are heretics because they were Catholic. This shows the fatal flaw in your theology. Your preconceived theological beliefs must be true before you even begin to look at scripture and history, as opposed to studying scripture and history in order to derive your theology from both. It's called "eisegesis".
quote:
Give me some documents that aren't "roman" and I'll put some thought into it
So you admit Ignatius, Irenaus, and the other early church fathers were "roman," aka Catholic, and therefore, the church handed down from the apostles was the Catholic church?
Posted on 10/16/23 at 8:32 am to CorchJay
quote:
There were other denominations all during the 1500 years prior to 1500. Some made it some didn't but the influence was always out there. Like I mention prior there were anabaptist "churches" before the Catholic church. And no anabaptist has no affiliation with Baptist of today. So keep telling yourself that everyone believed the same thing.
Yes, this is called "Landmarkism" or "Baptist Successionism". Which, to be frank, is the easiest of all "Christian" doctrines to absolutely demolish. Followed very closely by KJVonlyism.
All other Protestant denominations reject successionism as a false doctrine.
All one has to do is study what these "baptist churches under various names" believed, and you'll see they were not only NOT baptist, but they wouldn't be allowed to stand in a baptist pulpit today.
Posted on 10/16/23 at 8:34 am to Stitches
quote:
Jesus obeyed the law as well. Did so perfectly, as a matter of fact. Does that make Him a sinner?
The difference is “the hypostatic union,” where Jesus is fully man AND fully God. Mary is not.
Although He became a man, Jesus never stopped being God. In conjunction with this, the Bible says that God cannot be tempted with evil (James 1:13). Therefore, Jesus could not have sinned when He was tempted, because He was still God. In other words, only God is unable to sin, and Jesus has ALWAYS been God (even in His humanity), so He could not have sinned.
Now go back and read Luke, about Mary doing purification rituals, FOR A SIN OFFERING, and needing ATONEMENT.
You just skipped right over that....but the answer and clarification that settles it very clearly and concisely is RIGHT. THERE. in scripture.
Scripture is greater than Papal decree.
This post was edited on 10/16/23 at 8:36 am
Posted on 10/16/23 at 8:38 am to LetTheTigerOut
quote:
Now go back and read Luke, about Mary doing purification rituals, FOR A SIN OFFERING, and needing ATONEMENT.
Go back and read Leviticus 12 where it states that mothers will be ritually unclean for forty days after giving birth. Once that period ends, the mother needs to provide a sin offering.
Mary followed the Jewish purity law regarding uncleanness, not sinfulness.
Posted on 10/16/23 at 8:42 am to Stitches
quote:
Mary followed the Jewish purity law regarding uncleanness, not sinfulness.
No, Stitches, that is incorrect. Scripture clearly says she undertook the purification rituals for a SIN OFFERING and ATONEMENT.
Posted on 10/16/23 at 8:44 am to Stitches
quote:
ordained by the disciples themselves are heretics because they were Catholic
They weren't Catholic they were Christian. It was 300 years after Christ before any Catholic organization and fell completely under pagan Rome. Obviously you're not dumb.
So maybe you should look past your biases and study as instructed to show thyself approved. It will become clearer and clearer to you.
You never answered if you studied the Peso's and the Flavians. They were from the same time period you keep referencing as "church fathers". Whats your take on their beliefs?
Posted on 10/16/23 at 8:47 am to CorchJay
Yosef ben Matityahu was forced to take a Flavian name.
Posted on 10/16/23 at 8:55 am to CorchJay
Ya'll enjoy the conversation. I've been hateful enough for a few months. I'll step away from the discussion. Hope all find what they are looking for. My first step was looking for a closer relationship with Christ. it led me on a 20 year journey.
Posted on 10/16/23 at 8:58 am to CorchJay
It's "Piso", tard.
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