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Message
re: Jesus Was a Refugee Commercial
Posted on 12/26/24 at 9:09 pm to themunch
Posted on 12/26/24 at 9:09 pm to themunch
quote:
Richard Cevantis Carrier (born December 1, 1969) is an American ancient historian.[2] He is a long-time contributor to skeptical websites, including The Secular Web and Freethought Blogs. Carrier has published a number of books and articles on philosophy and religion in classical antiquity, discussing the development of early Christianity from a skeptical viewpoint, and concerning religion and morality in the modern world. He has publicly debated a number of scholars on the historical basis of the Bible and Christianity. He is a prominent advocate of the theory that Jesus did not exist, which he has argued in a number of his works.[3] However, Carrier's methodology and conclusions in this field have proven controversial and unconvincing to most ancient historians,[4][5][6][7] and he and his theories are often identified as fringe.[8][9][10]
A couple days ago Squirrel cited this Carrier dude as a source for some of his ramblings in the thread so I looked this Carrier up and saw he is an atheist/Humanist. It appears a great deal of Carrier's adult life has been devoted to proving Christianity is a myth, kinda like a poster in this thread.
I was going to link some of Carriers work to the thread for scrutiny but I quickly decided.....what's the use.
There is something both Christians and atheists can agree on with regards to whether there is indeed a Creator, we will all know the answer shortly after our last dying breath. In the mean time we Christians will continue to pray for those whose arrogance, inexcusable ignorance, pride and pompous self importance separates them from their Creator
1
Posted on 12/26/24 at 11:33 pm to yakster
quote:
But yet there it is, in scripture. There is nothing in scripture that wasn’t put there for a reason.
What was the reason “Luke” wrote that Mary became pregnant during the reign of Herod the Great (who died in 4BCE) but gave birth at least 10 years later after Quirinius became governor of Syria in 6CE? Maybe she was pregnant with baby Jesus for 10 years.
quote:
Remember in the garden
It was a serpent, not Satan in that story. And the entire Genesis 3 was an allegory for the first temple polytheists not being allowed in the temple in Jerusalem any longer. In the first temple, they had A bronze serpent deity in the temple that they worshipped. The Bible even says that much. They called if Nehushtan.
quote:
when he told Eve a lie and she believed him?
In the Genesis 3 account the Nehash (snake) told the truth. And Adam and Eve didn’t die when they ate the fruit. Yahweh lied and then became angry that Adam and Eve now had divine knowledge of good and evil.
quote:
she had a choice and made a wrong decision
When she made the choice, she had not yet eaten the forbidden fruit and did now know right from wrong.
Posted on 12/27/24 at 8:16 am to Bass Tiger
quote:
There is something both Christians and atheists can agree on with regards to whether there is indeed a Creator, we will all know the answer shortly after our last dying breath.
Who is to say that there isn’t a creator of our universe but that there is no afterlife? Most likely after our last breath we won’t know shite.
quote:
arrogance, inexcusable ignorance, pride
This is a great description of you Christians.
Posted on 12/27/24 at 8:31 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:
Most likely after our last breath we won’t know shite
And if you are most likely wrong? You are willing to risk your eternal future on "most likely"?
Play this out for me... what if you are wrong? How does that play out for you?
Posted on 12/27/24 at 8:45 am to MemphisGuy
quote:
And if you are most likely wrong? You are willing to risk your eternal future on "most likely"?
First of all you’re presupposing if I’m wrong, that makes 100% of whatever your beliefs and dogma is to be correct. It’s a false dichotomy fallacy. We both could be wrong.
But in your presuppositions, you have eternal torture in hell as an infinite punishment for a finite thought crime. Who is to say that place exists? What if it doesn’t?
Going back to your false dichotomy, what if you and I are both wrong? What if Jehovah’s witnesses will inherit eternal life in God’s kingdom, and because you didn’t subscribe to their beliefs, you end up in hell with me?
Most or all of the several thousand Christian sects say you have to be a member of their sect to inherit eternal life. How do you know which one is the correct one? How did you pick the one you are in? Or did your parents pick it for you?
What if there is a creator, and Muhammad was his last and final prophet? And you are committing idolatry with all your images of Jesus and Mary and crosses and angels and such and worshipping multiple gods (the Trinity) instead of the one true Allah? If that’s the case, you’ll be burning in hell right beside me.
Posted on 12/27/24 at 9:29 am to jimmy the leg
quote:
He went back home though, so a refugee, but not an immigrant.
Not a refugee. As a citizen of Rome, Joseph participated in the Roman census. He was doing his civic duty. He might not have like the Romans and their government, but he was doing what was required.
Posted on 12/27/24 at 10:00 am to Squirrelmeister
You are knowledgeable, but you are not wise. “Yahweh lied”? Really? So, you’re trying to discredit God by saying He lies? You are a foolish person, because you don’t believe, you try and minimize who God is. John 8:44 Jesus said Satan is a liar and the father of all lies. Who was the first liar? The serpent, the father of lies.
Posted on 12/27/24 at 11:15 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:Not at all. You just said that your opinion is truthful and you present your comments as the truth, even attempting to support those opinions by using fringe academics in an attempt to show that you are right.
You are the only one claiming your opinions are “the Truth” with a capital “T”.
I also differentiate between my mere opinions and what God teaches from His word. What God teaches as true, all people are compelled to accept.
quote:Are you expecting a huge archeological discovery to support your position? Or, are you just hoping more atheists throw aside reason in order to suppress the truth? Also, consensus doesn’t determine truth.
In 20 years, it will become scholarly consensus that the man Jesus never walked the earth, just like already is consensus that Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, etc. never existed as real people.
quote:Your atheism doesn’t change what’s true. Facts themselves are not brute but must be interpreted. You interpret reality according to your false presuppositions and therefore you do not arrive at the truth. I see evidence all over for what I believe to be true, but you, as the fool you are, are darkened in your understanding, and you refuse to see what is plain. This is not an intellectual problem but a moral one. You cannot see the truth for what it is until your spiritual eyes are opened. Until then, you will remain a fool by acting as if God exists while denying Him and His revelation with your mouth.
There will be people like you that will cling to your beliefs in the man Jesus on a 6000-year-old earth with a history of plant-eating tyrannosauruses with dinosaurs cohabiting the earth with people. No amount of hard evidence can convince the severely brainwashed.
quote:
This statement is complete and utter horseshite.
OK? Nice response supported by the facts. What I said is true and I supported my contention in three separate posts, which even though you seem to take great pleasure in multiplying words to show how others are wrong, you didn’t respond to even half of what I said. One of the few things you took the time to respond to, you simply said the equivalent of “nuh uh”.
quote:You act as though God exists. You act as though there is meaning in life. You act as though truth matters. You act as if there is real morality that all should adhere to. You exhibit all the symptoms of being made in the image of God yet you deny that it is God who made you and sustains you and you make yourself as a god. Your worldview and beliefs, if true, would make it impossible for you to understand anything in this world. You have to borrow from God in order to deny Him, all while acting that there is a true moral standard that He and others are breaking which results in you using words like “good” and “evil”. I’ve said it many times but you are a walking contradiction and you can’t help but be such because you reject the truth.
What Roman’s 1 teaches is just Paul’s excuse for why he is unable to convert some gentiles. Trust that a disbeliever in all the many gods of the Israelite pantheon and others do not believe in them consciously or subconsciously.
quote:Oh I’m quite familiar with these other writings you refer to. Your problem is that you assume that if a writing exists, it is on equal footing with all other writings that exist and should be given equal credibility and equal value in the discussion. Oh, except the Bible. For you, all other writings must be true and the Bible must be false. All other writings must be authentic while the Bible must be a poor forgery. All other writings express the truth—or at least the truth from the perspective of the peoples at the time of their writing—while the Bible is a bunch of lies that are meant to deceive the masses.
Your insistence on univocality of only the scriptures in your Bible but none of the other scriptures that didn’t make the cut of the canon won’t even allow your brain to look at the big picture of middle eastern history and all the other writings/scriptures available to put the modern canon into context. So you’ll never be able to understand it like I am able to. It’s like you are mentally handicapped while believing you are a genius.
No, the other writings that were rejected as not being Scripture are not on equal footing with the Scriptures. Having read them myself, I see why they were rejected.
You are eager to accept any report that contradicts the Bible. You are eager to give credence to any account that challenges the biblical narrative and you look for any scholar who agrees with you to support your delusion. That will only compound your guilt and I hope one day you see that your endeavors are vanity and accept the truth.
quote:Thank you; we did. I hope you and yours did, as well.
Merry Christmas. I hope you and your family had a good one.
I hope you give thanks to your creator for the blessings bestowed on you in spite of you rejecting the source of those blessings.
Posted on 12/27/24 at 11:45 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:Right.
On the Historicity of Jesus: Why we may have Reason to Doubt
Carrier's thesis is Christianity exploded as a faith, arising from absolutely nothing. I guess such abject fatuity would seem feasible to atheists who believe the universe evolved in identical fashion.
Posted on 12/27/24 at 12:10 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:It's a matter of faith, of belief. Your questioning of others' faith is analogous to questioning a mother's love for her child. It's weird. It's pointless.
Who is to say that there isn’t a creator of our universe but that there is no afterlife? Most likely after our last breath we won’t know shite.
Your retreat from history, and return back to your personal and odd interpretation of stylistic scripture, is again noted. To what end other than simplistic pestering, I have no idea.
Posted on 12/27/24 at 12:32 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
quote:Who is to say that there isn’t a creator of our universe but that there is no afterlife? Most likely after our last breath we won’t know shite.
It's a matter of faith, of belief. Your questioning of others' faith is analogous to questioning a mother's love for her child. It's weird. It's pointless. Your retreat from history, and return back to your personal and odd interpretation of stylistic scripture, is again noted. To what end other than simplistic pestering, I have no idea.
Once SquirrelDude cited Richard Carrier's books and crapola papers as some of his sources.....it all made perfect sense. Nearly everything Carrier has published has been an attack on Judeo/Christian beliefs.
Posted on 12/27/24 at 12:40 pm to yakster
quote:
“Yahweh lied”? Really? So, you’re trying to discredit God by saying He lies? You are a foolish person, because you don’t believe, you try and minimize who God is.
Go re-read Genesis chapters 2 and 3. Yes Yahweh lied. He said if they ate from the tree of knowledge they would die that day. The serpent called out Yahweh’s lies to them. Then when they ate the fruit, the exact thing the serpent said would happen: eat of the fruit and they would become like gods knowing good and evil actually did happen. And what Yahweh said, that they would die that very day, did not happen. It’s very easy to see that Yahweh was the liar.
Posted on 12/27/24 at 12:44 pm to Bass Tiger
It appears that poster spends hours and hours researching something he doesn't believe in. He then wastes hours trying to convince people if faith that their faith is misplaced. What a waste of his time to accomplish absolutely nothing.
Posted on 12/27/24 at 12:44 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Carrier's thesis is Christianity exploded as a faith, arising from absolutely nothing
Well that is false and shows you are an imbecile and that you never read Carrier’s book or even watched a 2 minute video summarizing his research.
quote:
I guess such abject fatuity would seem feasible to atheists who believe the universe evolved in identical fashion.
Just like the damn dirty democrats trying to project your own faults onto others. It is Christians who generally believe the earth came from nothing but that “God” spoke it into existence. I know of no atheists who believe the universe came from nothing.
Posted on 12/27/24 at 12:48 pm to Bass Tiger
quote:
Nearly everything Carrier has published has been an attack on Judeo/Christian beliefs
It does indeed make Squirrel's posts make "perfect sense". Well, not his posts, they are hot garbage, but his reason for posting them.
He's not trying to inform or understand or anything of the sort... he's simply seeking to tear down Christian beliefs. Nothing else.
And I'll say this about Foo... he's got far more patience than I'll ever even dream of having... God bless him for that.
This post was edited on 12/27/24 at 12:50 pm
Posted on 12/27/24 at 3:09 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:ORLY?
Well that is false
Suppose then you specify what, aside from a "mythical spirit who never really existed," Carrier attributes Christ as being.
quote:No, theists of various faiths believe the Universe "came from" God.
Just like the damn dirty democrats trying to project your own faults onto others. It is Christians who generally believe the earth came from nothing but that “God” spoke it into existence.
Now then hot shot, what do you believe?
This post was edited on 12/27/24 at 3:10 pm
Posted on 12/27/24 at 4:45 pm to Dex Morgan
quote:
Therein lies by biggest problem with religion. Commanding us to obey the government and pay taxes... No wonder 90% of folks around here are such sheep.
I don't have anything to offer here other than present this in response to your post.
I have been confused my whole life it seems. Raised Baptist and went to Catholic school until the 8th grade.
I wish I had a stronger "faith gene", for lack og a better term.
Onward Christian soldiers.
Posted on 12/27/24 at 5:10 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
ORLY?
Yes
quote:
Suppose then you specify what, aside from a "mythical spirit who never really existed," Carrier attributes Christ as being.
You’re moving the goalposts. You said Carrier said Christianity arose from nothing or something like that. Now you’re asking what Carrier attributes Christ as being, but you’ve already answered it in your question - a mythical spirit who never really existed. Carrier never asserts that Christianity just sprung up out of nothing. It’s a continuation of a very ancient Canaanite polytheistic religion.
quote:
Now then hot shot, what do you believe?
All the data points to matter and energy as always existing and that they cannot be created or destroyed. I don’t have all the answers, but the universe appears to be expanding. Why or how I’m not sure, but when there is a lack of knowledge on a subject I’m not going to accept a made up fairy tale to explain the things we don’t know and maybe can’t ever know.
Posted on 12/27/24 at 6:15 pm to Stinger_1066
No border was crossed...Aegyptus was a Roman province, as was Judea
They were Jews - Joseph,Mary,Jesus - under Roman occupation
They were Jews - Joseph,Mary,Jesus - under Roman occupation
This post was edited on 12/27/24 at 6:19 pm
Posted on 12/27/24 at 6:36 pm to wfallstiger
Finally an internet thread about religion where both sides don't just dig in on their original beliefs.
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