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Message
re: 'Member when Putin said he'd use nukes?
Posted on 9/21/22 at 3:40 pm to NC_Tigah
Posted on 9/21/22 at 3:40 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Referring to the Baltics?
No, I am referring to Norway. The Baltic states joined in 2004.
quote:
But, Putin made an excellent case re: Ukraine/Georgia when addressing NATO in the Baltics. He pointed out NATO exercises flying nuke capable bombers 12mi from the Latvian-Russian border.
The US wouldn't tolerate Russian nukes 90 miles from Florida. Obviously NATO Bombers are an offensive weapon. Obviously their presence 12 miles away requires a defensive fighter and anti-aircraft missile scramble. That response is (1) revealing of defenses, and (2) very costly. Extending those responsibilities/exposures 4X or more (in perpetuity) for Russia is untenable. Russia wants a buffer. Russia needs a buffer. That should not be so difficult to comprehend.
I see what you are saying, but why did Putin wait almost twenty years and then attack Ukraine if he was super-duper threatened by NATO forces being present on his border since 2004? That is the part that does not make sense. The geographic situation between NATO and Russia directly has been static for quite a while now. It also ignores that Ukraine was nowhere near NATO membership.
quote:
Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. For that reason, Russia damn well does not want German-French forces and their allies encamped along Russia's entire western border.
I guess here is our difference of opinion. You seem to believe that Russia actually and legitimately perceives NATO's presence in the Baltic states/eastern Europe as a national security threat. I do not believe that Russia actually views NATO's presence there as a threat to their national security. I do think they see it as a threat to their ultimate ambition of bringing ethnic Russian territory back under the Russian flag, and a threat to their economic/cultural domination of the region. I believe they conveniently turn to that "easy" excuse for acting out when it suits them. Which of course it their prerogative, but that does not make it legitimate.
Besides, the only thing this invasion has accomplished vis-a-vis Russia and NATO is to bring in Finland and Sweden to the alliance--which was entirely predictable. Therefore I am only left to believe that NATO was not Russia's ultimate goal here--it makes no sense and the only possible outcome was a stronger and more united NATO. It is simply obvious to me that their cultural/territorial/economic ambitions for eastern Ukraine were always the predominant factor, and fear of NATO was just the excuse.
This post was edited on 9/21/22 at 3:43 pm
2
Posted on 9/21/22 at 3:43 pm to BayouBlitz
quote:They never had intention of taking Ukraine. Never!
If Russia takes Ukraine
quote:Yeah? .... Not happening.
remaining Ukraine will join NATO
As long as that is a threat, Russia will press the attack. More Ukrainians will die needlessly. If Russians eventually need to level Kiev, they will. NATO in Ukraine is that important to them.
In terms of your presumption, Ukraine was willing to pull NATO off the table permanently in April. Biden/Johnson scuttled those negotiations.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 3:46 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
Indefatigable
Well stated.
Remember when Putin said the Operation's goal was denazification and demilitarization of Ukraine bad guys?
And now he's looking to annex Ukraine territory. It was never about NATO or nazis. It was always a land grab.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 3:46 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
I am referring to Norway
Okay.
Good luck with a land invasion there.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 3:49 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Okay.
Good luck with a land invasion there.
Hey, Russia did it in reverse in Occupied on Netflix
Point stands though. I just do not buy Russia's stated justification or, more accurately, I do not buy that the given public justification is the actual motivation for their actions. Given the Russians' historical (and to some extent cultural) propensity for obfuscation, I do not think I am way into left field in believing that either. The NATO angle just doesn't hold water for me because the end result of this invasion was never going to be anything other than a stronger and more united NATO, particularly on the Eastern edge. Putin knows that. He just doesn't care, because he knows the West is weak at the moment and won't do anything about it.
But we have gone around and around on this in several threads since this war started. No need to do it all again.
This post was edited on 9/21/22 at 3:55 pm
Posted on 9/21/22 at 3:52 pm to Wtodd
The whole world is festering
With unhappy souls
The French hate the Germans
The Germans hate the Poles
Italians hate Yugoslavs
South Africans hate the Dutch
And I don't like
Anybody very much
But we can be tranquil
And thankful and proud
For man's been endowed
With a mushroom shaped cloud
And we know for certain
That some lovely day
Someone will set the spark off
And we will all be blown away
With unhappy souls
The French hate the Germans
The Germans hate the Poles
Italians hate Yugoslavs
South Africans hate the Dutch
And I don't like
Anybody very much
But we can be tranquil
And thankful and proud
For man's been endowed
With a mushroom shaped cloud
And we know for certain
That some lovely day
Someone will set the spark off
And we will all be blown away
Posted on 9/21/22 at 3:53 pm to BayouBlitz
quote:At this point, you probably should drop out of the discussion. But go ahead and post a Ukraine flag as you do. It will make you feel soooooooooooo ... patriotic.
Remember when Putin said the Operation's goal was denazification and demilitarization of Ukraine bad guys?
Posted on 9/21/22 at 3:57 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
At this point, you probably should drop out of the discussion. But go ahead and post a Ukraine flag as you do. It will make you feel soooooooooooo ... patriotic.
Well that's an ignorant response to a fact.
Not surprising.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 4:03 pm to BayouBlitz
quote:The fact that nazification and militarization in Eastern Ukraine was a problem for ethnic Russians? You have no clue as to WTF you are talking about. Post a Blue and Gold Flag like any democrat "patriot", and move on.
Well that's an ignorant response to a fact.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 4:24 pm to Wtodd
Retired US General says US will retaliate with 'a devastating strike' against Russia's Black Sea Fleet or bases in Crimea if Putin follows through on threat to use nuclear weapons in Ukraine.
Retired Lieutenant General Ben Hodges today said any response by America 'may not be nuclear' but warned that if Putin were to use nukes in Ukraine that the US could look to 'destroy the Black Sea Fleet or destroy Russian bases in Crimea'.
Gen Hodges, who commanded the US Army in Europe between 2014 and 2018, stressed the 'possibility' of Putin ordering a nuclear strike on Ukraine was 'very unlikely'.
But he said the use of any strategic weapons of mass destruction would be met with a swift and severe reaction from President Joe Biden.
Daily Mail
Retired Lieutenant General Ben Hodges today said any response by America 'may not be nuclear' but warned that if Putin were to use nukes in Ukraine that the US could look to 'destroy the Black Sea Fleet or destroy Russian bases in Crimea'.
Gen Hodges, who commanded the US Army in Europe between 2014 and 2018, stressed the 'possibility' of Putin ordering a nuclear strike on Ukraine was 'very unlikely'.
But he said the use of any strategic weapons of mass destruction would be met with a swift and severe reaction from President Joe Biden.
Daily Mail
Posted on 9/21/22 at 8:07 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
You either struggle with literacy, or you're so lazy you didn't even open the link.
Ever wonder how many of these are simply paid trolls? For some, it is their job.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 8:09 pm to JJJimmyJimJames
quote:
and the wild eyed nonsense of Victoria Nuland, Baraq Obama, George Soros, and all of the CIA who have broken all trust in Ukraine in this geopolitical disaster
Not to mention that the Ukraine was a WEF poster child project.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 8:11 pm to Indefatigable
quote:No what I am saying is that one "blowing up" due to lack of 'maintenance' is an absurd thought, to the point of impossibility.
Are you saying that nuclear-capable missiles, the warheads themselves, their fuel, etc. do not have to be well maintained in order to function?
Nuclear weapons dont suddenly initiate nuclear fission because someone didnt spray some WD-40 on a fuse, or a button, or a case.
Nuclear weapons depart from standard explosives and ordinance so as to be completely out of the purveyance of standard explosive rules and regimen.
Hence a distinct lack of understanding of this technology
Posted on 9/21/22 at 8:17 pm to BayouBlitz
quote:no peabrain, it is about another power insisting on setting up shop right on their doorstep - that is ALL it is.. the perseverance of the bear to keep NATO/USA/Bioweapons labs out of access to Russia.
Well stated.
Remember when Putin said the Operation's goal was denazification and demilitarization of Ukraine bad guys?
And now he's looking to annex Ukraine territory. It was never about NATO or nazis. It was always a land grab.
This is a set rule that is applicable to any superpower in the existence of world history. This can not be emphasized enough.
Pretending it is some of the things I am hearing here is an absurdity - an absurdity destined to get your children or grandchildren murdered in war in a completely unnecessary pretense/mistake with Victoria Nuland, Baraq the Kenyan, Clintons, Bidens, Romneys in control of the murder/payola.
This post was edited on 9/21/22 at 8:25 pm
Posted on 9/21/22 at 8:22 pm to JJJimmyJimJames
quote:
another power insisting on setting up shop right on their doorstep
Except, they've had that for years and now because of this action two additional countries have made actions to join.
So either it's not that or Putin is very bad at game theory.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 8:25 pm to Wtodd
Well we’re supplying weapons to kill his citizens. What are you upset about?
Posted on 9/21/22 at 8:27 pm to jonnyanony
quote:or a 3rd option; Putin has attempted to accomodate the Evil Empire
So either it's not that or Putin is very bad at game theory.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 9:02 pm to JJJimmyJimJames
quote:
or a 3rd option; Putin has attempted to accomodate the Evil Empire
I don't know what you mean by that, sorry.
I personally don't believe that Russia is so bad at strategy that they didn't know what would happen if they very belatedly invaded to stop NATO troops.
And today they released the war criminal POWs that were the supposed Nazis. Only one narrative makes sense at this point and that's purely the restoration of Ukrainian people and lands into Russia.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 9:32 pm to jonnyanony
meaning that he may have thought that for USA state department to attempt nation building he could wait it out and see if US Democrats are truly FCKUPs - they are but continued on any way.
So, after the Crimean adventure he saw a respite.
Unfortunately the Americans were as devious as he could have feared.
Accommodation.
Too much accommodation and he returned fairly quickly to defeat the enemy on his doorstep.
American Democrats deciding Ukraine elections in 2014? Too much?
American Democrats deciding US elections and staying in Ukraine with biolabs? sorry, line crossed.
Then
So, after the Crimean adventure he saw a respite.
Unfortunately the Americans were as devious as he could have feared.
Accommodation.
Too much accommodation and he returned fairly quickly to defeat the enemy on his doorstep.
American Democrats deciding Ukraine elections in 2014? Too much?
American Democrats deciding US elections and staying in Ukraine with biolabs? sorry, line crossed.
Then
Posted on 9/21/22 at 9:40 pm to JJJimmyJimJames
Are you drunk?
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