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Message
re: Rolling Stone: Marx Was Right
Posted on 2/1/14 at 1:44 am to Sleeping Tiger
Posted on 2/1/14 at 1:44 am to Sleeping Tiger
I didn't ask about Marx ideal society, I asked how you would bring it about.
So it isn't possible until society is post-scarcity, yeah it is safe to say that's impossible
quote:
Not to mention Marx understood that socialism couldn't thrive when it begins in conditions of scarcity,
So it isn't possible until society is post-scarcity, yeah it is safe to say that's impossible
1
Posted on 2/1/14 at 1:48 am to Tyrion Lannister
quote:
How about innovation, creativity, perseverance, ingenuity, and faithfulness? Detractors of capitalism like yourself tend to throw negative terms out as if just because someone is successful and ends up being wealthy they did it through greed, exploitation, and dishonest behavior. That's not an accurate picture.
You said a glaring defect of communism is it doesn't account for human nature.
Therefore you must believe there are negative aspects to human nature, such as greed and the desire to exploit for personal gain.
I asked if capitalism accounts for human nature.
Your response was under capitalism the individual has the freedom to benefit themselves.
How is that an answer for how capitalism accounts for human nature? You're saying capitalism allows individuals to be free, but you also think that individuals have the capacity and desire to be greedy and exploitative, so wouldn't a system that has checks and balances on human nature be better than one that not only lets it run free but encourages the negative aspects to shape society?
This post was edited on 2/1/14 at 2:40 am
Posted on 2/1/14 at 1:56 am to blackrose890
quote:
I didn't ask about Marx ideal society, I asked how you would bring it about.
You asked how to eliminate human nature without an iron fist, not how to bring about an ideal society.
I responded by saying Marx didn't intend to eliminate human nature, instead use a system that wouldn't enable the negative aspects of our nature. He didn't envision a world without bad people, greed, or pain, but a system that wouldn't let those aspects shape our reality.
And then I said that the iron fist image is not Marxism, it's Stalinism, which is a monstrously mutated form of socialism run by a mad man.
Posted on 2/1/14 at 2:01 am to Sleeping Tiger
Which we now know is impossible in reality, unless we create a global post-scarcity environment.
Posted on 2/1/14 at 2:11 am to blackrose890
quote:
Which we now know is impossible in reality, unless we create a global post-scarcity environment
Which we now know what is impossible?
Posted on 2/1/14 at 2:22 am to TROLA
quote:
Today, in a world of both unheard-of wealth and abject poverty, where the richest 85 people have more wealth than the poorest 3 billion, the famous cry, "Workers of the world unite; you have nothing to lose but your chains," has yet to lose its potency
This right here just pisses me off... The worlds poverty level has shrank considerably because of capitalism and the destruction of Marxism.. What a farce that magazine has become
The poverty stats don't tell the whole story.
Forced displacement plays a big role in the improvement over the last 30 years. A peasant could live on his land, and let the land provide his basic needs. As a wage laborer, he may have a wage that pushes him over $2 dollars a day, but he now has to pay for his basic needs. This is an example of how a poverty statistic may be positive, but the truth sheds a different light.
Marx wrote, “The expropriation of the agricultural producer, of the peasant, from the soil, is the basis of the whole [capitalist] process. The history of this expropriation assumes different aspects in different countries, and runs through its various phases in different orders of succession, and at different historical epochs.”
Posted on 2/1/14 at 7:11 am to Sleeping Tiger
WHo the Hell cares what a music magazine says about anything? That's as bad as asking an actor his opinion on anything.
"Show people" used to be a slur. We need to go back to that.
"Show people" used to be a slur. We need to go back to that.
Posted on 2/1/14 at 8:00 am to Sleeping Tiger
Good stuff, ST...you got us thinking! 
When it comes to envisioning/implementing the First Principle of and Economic System which would be the bases for a prosperous and SURVIVABLE society, from the arguments above, it becomes obvious that what we are dealing with is what we may deem 'flaws' in HUMAN NATURE.
Competition brings out the best, and promotes/ensures survival of them that qualify above a particular standard...and eliminates them that don't. Yet Competition for competition sake, unrestrained and unwise...can take us down. Like a gun...good or bad depending on how it's employed.
Now a Lib might cry foul at Nature' Law (God's too, Hitler WON'T be in 'Heaven'), but their *compassion* for the poor, ignorant and weak who got cut...could only be wisely/practically addressed by RAISING them to meet the Standards, as opposed to lowering the Standard. Lowering the Standards means we end up with a TON of low-standard individuals; 'heathens', in effect, who will surely turn and bite the hand that subsidizes them. And in the name of a false (equality) morality. The *Proletariat* ain't necessarily good; no more so than and *Exploiter*. Depends on the individual.
There is a whole nother dynamic to this issue. And that is in regard to Purpose. Is - or should - our highest First Principle be survival and prosperity of our kind....or should it be prosperity of...OUR NATURE. Our 'nature' as such relates to our PERCEPTION. Because in fact...our *Nature*, is determined by our Perception. Not to discount biological/genetic influence, or the Culture du jour. Nature and Nurture.
The speculative/theoretical dynamic to which I speak, posits the idea that it is a SPIRITUAL (our Nature/Perception) purpose, that should be recognized/implemented as a First Principle in any systematic address of what is essentially a SOCIAL problem.
Marxism attempts to address such with restraints on what it perceives (rightly so, IMHO) negative/counterproductive aspects of our Nature...yet is does so only in and ECONOMIC sense. So, it addresses a problem of human nature/perception, with a form of Authoritarian/Egalitarian systematic money dispensation rules.
That is a shot in the dark.
Bottom line. Individuals will always WORSHIP POWER. Because power is intoxicating/corrupting...and as well the ticket to a Heaven if there is one (there definitely is, in Spirit). Knowledge is the ultimate Power. And it is Knowledge that will ultimately be the cure for what is a human nature/perception problem. Inequality is a manifestation of both the LACK OF KNOWLEDGE...and the ABUSE OF KNOWLEDGE/POWER.
It may well be that we - as individuals - are on a Knowledge/Spiritual 'ladder'. That we live life, experience the consequences of our choices (and those of others, vicariously)...and that we move on to the next rung, 'reaping what we sew', I.e., becoming the Spiritual sum total of the Values which we worship, and which define the essence of who we are. Our 'nature'. And define the Collective dynamic of the *problems* therein.
Greed can be good. Greed can be bad. Envy too. "To the pure...ALL things are pure" (Biblical). Spot on.
I could go on forever. Probably will.
Good work!
When it comes to envisioning/implementing the First Principle of and Economic System which would be the bases for a prosperous and SURVIVABLE society, from the arguments above, it becomes obvious that what we are dealing with is what we may deem 'flaws' in HUMAN NATURE.
Competition brings out the best, and promotes/ensures survival of them that qualify above a particular standard...and eliminates them that don't. Yet Competition for competition sake, unrestrained and unwise...can take us down. Like a gun...good or bad depending on how it's employed.
Now a Lib might cry foul at Nature' Law (God's too, Hitler WON'T be in 'Heaven'), but their *compassion* for the poor, ignorant and weak who got cut...could only be wisely/practically addressed by RAISING them to meet the Standards, as opposed to lowering the Standard. Lowering the Standards means we end up with a TON of low-standard individuals; 'heathens', in effect, who will surely turn and bite the hand that subsidizes them. And in the name of a false (equality) morality. The *Proletariat* ain't necessarily good; no more so than and *Exploiter*. Depends on the individual.
There is a whole nother dynamic to this issue. And that is in regard to Purpose. Is - or should - our highest First Principle be survival and prosperity of our kind....or should it be prosperity of...OUR NATURE. Our 'nature' as such relates to our PERCEPTION. Because in fact...our *Nature*, is determined by our Perception. Not to discount biological/genetic influence, or the Culture du jour. Nature and Nurture.
The speculative/theoretical dynamic to which I speak, posits the idea that it is a SPIRITUAL (our Nature/Perception) purpose, that should be recognized/implemented as a First Principle in any systematic address of what is essentially a SOCIAL problem.
Marxism attempts to address such with restraints on what it perceives (rightly so, IMHO) negative/counterproductive aspects of our Nature...yet is does so only in and ECONOMIC sense. So, it addresses a problem of human nature/perception, with a form of Authoritarian/Egalitarian systematic money dispensation rules.
That is a shot in the dark. Bottom line. Individuals will always WORSHIP POWER. Because power is intoxicating/corrupting...and as well the ticket to a Heaven if there is one (there definitely is, in Spirit). Knowledge is the ultimate Power. And it is Knowledge that will ultimately be the cure for what is a human nature/perception problem. Inequality is a manifestation of both the LACK OF KNOWLEDGE...and the ABUSE OF KNOWLEDGE/POWER.
It may well be that we - as individuals - are on a Knowledge/Spiritual 'ladder'. That we live life, experience the consequences of our choices (and those of others, vicariously)...and that we move on to the next rung, 'reaping what we sew', I.e., becoming the Spiritual sum total of the Values which we worship, and which define the essence of who we are. Our 'nature'. And define the Collective dynamic of the *problems* therein.
Greed can be good. Greed can be bad. Envy too. "To the pure...ALL things are pure" (Biblical). Spot on.
I could go on forever. Probably will.
Good work!
Posted on 2/1/14 at 10:56 am to Sleeping Tiger
quote:
Marx didn't believe in eliminating the bad side of human nature, he believed in a system that would eliminate opportunities for the negative aspects of human nature to shape society. I think you'd be surprised to learn the extent of democracy and individual freedom Marx wrote about.
The iron fist image comes from mad men, Stalin and Mussolini. Stalinism is a monstrous caricature of socialism, it goes directly against a number of fundamental beliefs of Marx. Not to mention Marx understood that socialism couldn't thrive when it begins in conditions of scarcity, which is exactly what Stalin did.
I know. What's interesting is that people are so afraid of Marxism they don't read Marx. They just read what history tells us Stalin did. If they read Marx they would know that what Stalin did was in so many ways anti-Marxists.
But it's funny how people who love capitalism so much don't read Marx when he wrote the best history and explanation of Capitalism of all time.
You can read Marx to learn about Capitalism. Marx is quite fair to the positives of Capitalism like innovation and incentive to work, but pointed out that the negatives begin to out weigh the positives as capitalism develops and how capital begins its ruthless need for greater returns on capital.
What these Rush Limbaugh and Ayn Rand wannabes don't get is how capital moves and flows all around the earth in search of greater returns and your innovation, creativity, and freedom eventually goes away since seeking returns on capital destroys those things.
Posted on 2/1/14 at 11:01 am to DeltaDoc
quote:
"Workers of the world unite; you have nothing to lose but your chains," has yet to lose its potency
This should now be changed to keep up with the times.
"Non workers unite; you have nothing to lose but...well nothing so unite and get more free stuff".
Posted on 2/1/14 at 12:45 pm to Sleeping Tiger
quote:
How is that an answer for how capitalism accounts for human nature? You're saying capitalism allows individuals to be free, but you also think that individuals have the capacity and desire to be greedy and exploitative, so wouldn't a system that has checks and balances on human nature be better than one that not only lets it run free but encourages the negative aspects to shape society?
Checks and balances by who? By the very people who suffer from these alleged negative aspects of human nature as well?
Also I find it very funny how people like to point out that Stalin Mao etc were not communist Marxist or whatever yet western "intellectuals" and columnist at the time were all pointing to Russia as an example of the proof of the validity of the great communist society.
Posted on 2/1/14 at 12:50 pm to Ralph_Wiggum
It must be just a damn unfortunate coincidence that so many tyrants explicitly held up Marx as their philosophical genesis. 
Posted on 2/1/14 at 12:54 pm to DeltaDoc
quote:
Now, there is scarcely a country without a progressive income tax, and it's one small way that the U.S. tries to fight income inequality.
Why in the ever-loving frick should we fight that, comrads?
Posted on 2/1/14 at 1:09 pm to Ralph_Wiggum
quote:
If they read Marx they would know that what Stalin did was in so many ways anti-Marxists.
It's a great tragedy. Something that Marx and Engels would have certainly rejected is so heavily associated with their names.
quote:
But it's funny how people who love capitalism so much don't read Marx when he wrote the best history and explanation of Capitalism of all time.
Yeah, it's definitely funny that such a great understanding of capitalism goes unstudied by capitalists. It's said, and I'm sure you know, that the first chapter of The Communist Manifesto is the greatest praise of capitalism.
quote:
You can read Marx to learn about Capitalism. Marx is quite fair to the positives of Capitalism like innovation and incentive to work, but pointed out that the negatives begin to out weigh the positives as capitalism develops and how capital begins its ruthless need for greater returns on capital.
What these Rush Limbaugh and Ayn Rand wannabes don't get is how capital moves and flows all around the earth in search of greater returns and your innovation, creativity, and freedom eventually goes away since seeking returns on capital destroys those things.
Very true. It's unfortunate that capitalists stay on the ground level of its understanding, the 'praise phase', the level of understanding that is positive without bringing it full circle to truly understand it, which is what Marx does.
Posted on 2/1/14 at 1:28 pm to KissmyAxe
quote:
Checks and balances by who?
By real democracy and the system itself. You may be surprised to learn the amount of democratic process in Marx's beliefs. Important to note that he definitely understood an educated and intelligent populous was necessary for the success of any socialist system.
quote:
Also I find it very funny how people like to point out that Stalin Mao etc were not communist Marxist or whatever yet western "intellectuals" and columnist at the time were all pointing to Russia as an example of the proof of the validity of the great communist society.
Stalinism was very much an anti-thesis of Marxism. Of course western journalism is going to call a failing Russia proof that communism doesn't work.
Posted on 2/1/14 at 1:40 pm to Sleeping Tiger
At the end of the day every system has its flaws. I admit that capitalism has them. But its been proven to be the most successful system there is. The US wouldn't have become the world's leading power in less than 250 years if it weren't designed on a free market system.
Posted on 2/1/14 at 1:44 pm to Sleeping Tiger
quote:
By real democracy and the system itself.
Cliche. What is democracy besides the choices made by those who are themselves morally tainted and easily fooled?
quote:
Stalinism was very much an anti-thesis of Marxism. Of course western journalism is going to call a failing Russia proof that communism doesn't work.
No no..Western "elites" in the universities and in print owned Stalanist Russia as "proof" of Marxism.
Posted on 2/1/14 at 2:03 pm to Tyrion Lannister
quote:
The US wouldn't have become the world's leading power in less than 250 years if it weren't designed on a free market system.
That's sort of a point against capitalism, you'd know that if you had a better understanding of it. Success and wealth can be had on a grand scale, but with it comes the opposite.
While the US flourished other areas were exploited. Think about the fact that under capitalism we brought slaves from Africa to do our work, think that didn't contribute to the rise of this country?
Think about a corporation like Dole or United Fruit Co who have exploited other countries for their natural resources while bringing in major profits to the US economy. Think that doesn't contribute to our wealth?
Last time I checked the US was 17 trillion in debt, some cities look like 3rd world countries, the gap between rich and poor has grown to unbelievable levels, small business is being overtaken by multinationals, all media is owned by a few corporations who propagate those interests 24/7.
And unrelated to isms, the US greatly benefited from a decimated Europe and Russia. The US was the only real game in town, it's no surprise it was capitalized on.
Posted on 2/1/14 at 2:04 pm to DeltaDoc
The Cultural Left has been trying to rehabilitate Marx my entire life. 
Posted on 2/1/14 at 2:28 pm to Sleeping Tiger
quote:
While the US flourished other areas were exploited. Think about the fact that under capitalism we brought slaves from Africa to do our work, think that didn't contribute to the rise of this country?
Think about a corporation like Dole or United Fruit Co who have exploited other countries for their natural resources while bringing in major profits to the US economy. Think that doesn't contribute to our wealth?
Capitalists hate it when you bring that up. They believe it was fair and equal competition and people's own hard work with the incentives of capitalism that made a few in this country rich.
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