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Message
re: Southern Baptist convention under DOJ investigation
Posted on 8/13/22 at 12:38 pm to meeple
Posted on 8/13/22 at 12:38 pm to meeple
quote:
SBC should not try to conform to the world for whatever reason.
Sure, but they are made up of people, and people, everywhere are drifting from the truth. The church has pushed easy believism for years now, subsequently, the pews are filled with lost worldly people. This lead to its current state
This post was edited on 8/13/22 at 12:49 pm
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Posted on 8/13/22 at 12:39 pm to BuckyCheese
quote:
any logical person is against religion.
Fixed that for ya
Posted on 8/13/22 at 12:58 pm to VolcanicTiger
quote:
There is no hierarchy in the SBC. I've been SBC all my life and I couldn't name one person who holds an office supposedly over a church that isn't part of that same church. Fi
I’d recommend y’all read the houston chronicle series on the baptist church’s abuse
20 years, 700 victims: Southern Baptist sexual abuse spreads as leaders resist reforms LINK
quote:
At least 35 church pastors, employees and volunteers who exhibited predatory behavior were still able to find jobs at churches during the past two decades. In some cases, church leaders apparently failed to alert law enforcement about complaints or to warn other congregations about allegations of misconduct.
• Several past presidents and prominent leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention are among those criticized by victims for concealing or mishandling abuse complaints within their own churches or seminaries.
• Some registered sex offenders returned to the pulpit. Others remain there, including a Houston preacher who sexually assaulted a teenager and now is the principal officer of a Houston nonprofit that works with student organizations, federal records show. Its name: Touching the Future Today Inc. • Many of the victims were adolescents who were molested, sent explicit photos or texts, exposed to pornography, photographed nude, or repeatedly raped by youth pastors. Some victims as young as 3 were molested or raped inside pastors' studies and Sunday school classrooms. A few were adults — women and men who sought pastoral guidance and instead say they were seduced or sexually assaulted
Posted on 8/13/22 at 8:38 pm to Dire Wolf
quote:
I’d recommend y’all read the houston chronicle series on the baptist church’s abuse
20 years, 700 victims: Southern Baptist sexual abuse spreads as leaders resist reforms LINK
Don't care what the Houston Comical says. No one in the SBC would knowingly put up with it aside from the relatively few enablers who did. The SBC has 13-14M members. 35 victims a year, apparently by repeat offenders. That's not a systemic problem - that's called being better per capita than probably any other group of people in America, except maybe the Amish.
Posted on 8/13/22 at 9:16 pm to meeple
quote:
What else have your heard? Personally I think their material is garbage.
Nothing. I have no issue with their material. Sometimes my folks have some good lessons from the book but usually I get bored.
Posted on 8/13/22 at 9:23 pm to L.A.
quote:
Let's say a pastor gets arrested and convicted for abusing a child in Arkansas. The SBC leadership is aware of it, but the 47,000 churches in the SBC would not necessarily be aware of it. So the guy goes to another state and gets a job as a pastor. His new congregation has no knowledge of his past deeds. I'm guessing the DOJ is going to look into that to see if any crimes were committed
They're definitely going to look into institutional leaders who hid information about sex abuse. Paige Patterson at SWBTS comes to mind
Even if we ignore the fact that the SBC wasn't concealing anything, that's not how Southern Baptist churches work. Very few would ever consult with the SBC before hiring a pastor, and the SBC has no authority over member churches to even require them to report such a thing to the SBC.
The SBC only had publicly available information that would have come up on a background check. The guy I mentioned was literally just doing Google searches every once in a while and forwarding the articles he would find just so he himself would be aware. Any church would have been able to find the exact same info, even if that church didn't perform a standard background check (which they absolutely should).
Posted on 8/13/22 at 9:38 pm to Dire Wolf
quote:
I’d recommend y’all read the houston chronicle series on the baptist church’s abuse
20 years, 700 victims: Southern Baptist sexual abuse spreads as leaders resist reforms
Someone else already pointed out how phenomenal these overblown numbers are, but let me point out some other problems with your quoted text.
quote:
At least 35 church pastors, employees and volunteers
Employees? What are we talking about here? We including custodians?
Volunteers? Exactly what control would a church have over a volunteer outside of ousting them from the church completely? Just this week we had people on this website losing their minds when a church did exactly that to some lesbian "mothers." Y'all hate it when churches take those proactive steps.
quote:
church leaders apparently failed to alert law enforcement about complaints
The word "apparently" is doing some really heavy lifting in this sentence. For sure there were probably some leaders of individual churches doing this, but that isn't a SBC problem. That's a that person problem. The one instance like this that I read about from the Guideposts report (I don't recall another) ended up on that pastor being fired once it was discovered. Which is all the church can do. Hopefully charges were brought as well, but we can't force the law to do that.
The rest of your post is undoubtedly true. Unfortunately, you're never going to be able to catch abusers before they abuse people. The fact still remains that the SBC cannot track this and won't be able to do so.
Posted on 8/13/22 at 9:45 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:
Hopefully charges were brought as well, but we can't force the law to do that.
One of the cases highlighted nationally as a supposed failure of the church was when they did exactly this. As soon as an allegation surfaced, the church provided a safe environment for the wife and kids, and reported the accused to the police. They did nothing, but the church leaders hounded the district attorney until charges were finally filed. They went far above and beyond and were publicly criticized as covering it all up.
Posted on 8/13/22 at 9:52 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:Some in positions of power in SBC institutions most definitely were concealing things. Others may have been. One assumes that the investigation will sort that out
Even if we ignore the fact that the SBC wasn't concealing anything,
quote:My wife's father, brother and grandfather are all SBC pastors. Her sister is an SBC/IMB missionary. I have a pretty good idea how SBC churches work. The DOJ investigation will not be focused on SBC churches. It will be focused on SBC institutions and organizations
that's not how Southern Baptist churches work.
quote:That's less true now than it used to be, but still generally true. My guess is the DOJ wants to know if any SBC institutions and organizations buried information that should have been shared with local associations, who then could have shared it with local churches when they ran background searches on prospective pastors.
Very few would ever consult with the SBC before hiring a pastor, and the SBC has no authority over member churches to even require them to report such a thing to the SBC.
Posted on 8/13/22 at 9:53 pm to hawgfaninc
We fought on the wrong side in WW2.
Posted on 8/13/22 at 10:13 pm to L.A.
quote:
Some in positions of power in SBC institutions most definitely were concealing things. Others may have been. One assumes that the investigation will sort that out
Not sure where you're getting this from. I've seen no evidence of this at all. Not sure how you could possibly days this "most definitely" has been happening. It isn't even possible for this to happen. The SBC has no control over churches that they could even utilize to do this.
I've seen no allegations related to NAMB or the seminaries, so that really only leaves the churches.
quote:
My guess is the DOJ wants to know if any SBC institutions and organizations buried information that should have been shared with local associations
Again, this isn't possible. The SBC doesn't keep information like this to "bury." Information about hirings and firings of pastors aren't kept by the SBC. They wouldn't have this information to even disclose. Churches are supposed to do their own due diligence when hiring people. Background checks. References. A simple Google search (which is what a member of the Executive Council was doing and what the Guideposts report refers to as a "database").
This post was edited on 8/13/22 at 10:19 pm
Posted on 8/13/22 at 10:17 pm to Mickey Goldmill
quote:
So allegations of sexual abuse should be ignored?
Like epsteins clients ???? Where is the DOJ on that ?
Posted on 8/13/22 at 10:20 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:
I've seen no allegations related to NAMB or the seminaries, so that really only leaves the churches.
Jennifer Lyell story involved Southern. She has no credibility in my opinion, but it was where the affair or whatever it was started.
Posted on 8/13/22 at 10:27 pm to MRF
quote:
Jennifer Lyell story involved Southern. She has no credibility in my opinion, but it was where the affair or whatever it was started.
Ah ok. Yeah she comes off as a total lunatic.
Posted on 8/13/22 at 10:28 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:Here's a good place to start.
Not sure where you're getting this from
Southern Baptist report finds evidence of sexual abuse cover-up/ axios.com
Also, Paige Patterson might well be guilty of criminal conduct from his handling of at least one sex abuse case during his time at SWBTS
There are also allegations against Patterson about hum covering up for his protege Darryl Gilyard in the 1990's.
quote:
Paige Patterson, president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, didn’t respond to an e-mail sent Wednesday morning from EthicsDaily.com seeking comment for yesterday’s story asking seminary trustees to suspend Patterson and investigate allegations in 1991 newspaper articles that he repeatedly told women who reported sexual misconduct by his former protégé Darrell Gilyard to keep quiet unless they had tangible proof.
And the alleged rape case of former SBC president Johnny Hunt while he was at NAMB will surely be looked at. Did staff at NAMB and/or his church in Georgia know about this and cover it up?
quote:The SBC EC already admitted having such a list
Again, this isn't possible. The SBC doesn't keep information like this to "bury."
This post was edited on 8/13/22 at 10:33 pm
Posted on 8/13/22 at 10:33 pm to L.A.
quote:
And the alleged rape case of former SBC president Johnny Hunt while he was at NAMB will surely be looked at.
The what? This case was absurd but even the report didn’t try to characterize it as rape.
Posted on 8/13/22 at 10:38 pm to Bestbank Tiger
quote:
This wouldn't happen if the Baptists let priests marry.
This post was edited on 8/13/22 at 10:39 pm
Posted on 8/13/22 at 10:41 pm to MRF
quote:You're right. Sexual assault, not rape. The woman said he disrobed her, groped and sucked her naked breasts, and violently kissed her.
The what? This case was absurd but even the report didn’t try to characterize it as rape.
Have you read her testimony?
nbc.news
This post was edited on 8/13/22 at 10:51 pm
Posted on 8/13/22 at 10:55 pm to L.A.
quote:
Here's a good place to start
It actually isn't. Many people who were interviewed for that Guideposts report have come out and stated that the report did not accurately portray their statements. Even people who were actually abused. That report has barely any credibility, and is exactly what I'm talking about when I say that the executive committee brought this on themselves by giving a platform to rumors and lies.
quote:
The SBC EC already admitted having such a list
Nope. They admitted to having exactly what I said: News reports from publicly available information. The guy who was keeping that information came out and said as much, and stated that the Guideposts reports did not accurately portray what he was doing when they called it a "database."
Posted on 8/13/22 at 10:57 pm to L.A.
quote:
You're right. Sexual assault, not rape. The woman said he disrobed her, groped and sucked her naked breasts, and violently kissed her.
Have you read her testimony?
And he says it was consensual. Now, years later, it's meaningless, because she didn't file a police report so we're only ever going to have a he said/she said situation unless one of them comes clean and admits they are lying.
ETA: These are exactly the kind of "believe all women" #metoo allegations we all discount when we hear about them in general, but when we get this kind of situation with the SBC we're just supposed to believe it whole hat. It reminds me of how quick this board was to believe the nonsensical claims against Roy Moore.
This post was edited on 8/13/22 at 11:09 pm
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