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re: We Turned Our Backs on God
Posted on 6/11/20 at 11:22 am to FooManChoo
Posted on 6/11/20 at 11:22 am to FooManChoo
quote:This is ridiculous.
God's perfect and unchanging goodness is the foundation for objective moral reasoning and truth. When you reject God, you embrace the tools necessary to make the world whatever you want it to be rather than how it was created to be. This includes the perpetuation of evil throughout societies, even in the name of "good".
Nobody needs God to be a good person or to live “correctly.”
1
Posted on 6/11/20 at 11:26 am to WorkinDawg
quote:
Being created in the image of God, we have moral law and understanding of good/ evil written in our hearts (this is the exact opposite of "winging it"). Otherwise, there is no rational basis for understanding of good vs evil.
I completely understand what the sentence means. I went to a Catholic school for 15 years and had this same line of thought taught over and over again in every religion/theology/philosophy class. The problem is that in order for this line of thinking to be a universal or objective truth, you have to already believe in god and it only applies to people who already believe the "truth" of that statement.
My point is that saying
quote:without a belief in god is nothing other than his (and presumably your) belief. There simply are/can be other foundations for a persons rational morality other than a god/creator.
there is no rational basis for understanding of good vs evil.
This post was edited on 6/11/20 at 11:30 am
Posted on 6/11/20 at 11:31 am to Redtuff
quote:
So you understand they believe Jesus is in hell and there is no heaven, got it.
May have missed a few classes at Hebrew school but that’s not mainstream or even common jewish belief.
Posted on 6/11/20 at 11:31 am to ReauxlTide222
quote:Define "good" and define "correctly".
This is ridiculous.
Nobody needs God to be a good person or to live “correctly.”
My entire point is that without God, anyone can come up with their own definitions of "good" and "correct" and have those definitions be just as valid as any others. You have to have a standard to judge all other standards against, otherwise you have no basis to judge those standards as "good" or "bad".
For example, if everyone can determine what is "good" and "correct", then Hitler's version of "good" is on equal footing as Ghandi's version. In order to make sense of praise and condemnation within a moral framework, you have to have a standard to judge them by, and that requires an objective moral standard that transcends the individual human experience in our material world.
Posted on 6/11/20 at 11:32 am to LSU Coyote
quote:big whoop. you people who are so nonchalant about burning in hell forever are no joking matter
You religious ppl crack me up.
Posted on 6/11/20 at 11:33 am to CoachDon
if My people who are called by My Name...
Posted on 6/11/20 at 11:35 am to Indefatigable
Regardless of where you are from everyone knows what is right and wrong. God places these things in our hearts upon creation. Every person knows what is wrong in God’s eyes. I believe that we turned our back on God in this country. Now we will live in the devils den. Take a good look around my non believer friends. This is what hell is gonna look like
Posted on 6/11/20 at 11:36 am to Indefatigable
quote:
Why?
Material isn’t rational.
Posted on 6/11/20 at 11:37 am to Indefatigable
quote:
without a belief in god is nothing other than his (and presumably your) belief. There simply are/can be other foundations for a persons rational morality other than a god/creator.
I would argue that human's have an understanding of good/ evil, right/ wrong, etc., that other species do not. We can debate the origins all day.
However, your argument wasn't that you disagreed with the position that we have morality because we are all created by a moral God. Your argument was that those who don't believe in the Christian God were "winging it"....which is in fact the exact opposite of the original statement.
Posted on 6/11/20 at 11:38 am to FooManChoo
Posted on 6/11/20 at 11:39 am to WorkinDawg
quote:
Your argument was that those who don't believe in the Christian God were "winging it"....which is in fact the exact opposite of the original statement.
I don't see how "winging it" and 'holding an inherent knowledge of right and wrong but having no rational basis for doing so' are opposites.
Posted on 6/11/20 at 11:39 am to FooManChoo
You don’t think you could come up with a reasonable definition of good and bad without God?
Also, an incredibly massive amount of terrible things have happened directly because of the idea of God. So at some point it doesn’t matter that the standard of good and bad is set by God’s example.
Also, an incredibly massive amount of terrible things have happened directly because of the idea of God. So at some point it doesn’t matter that the standard of good and bad is set by God’s example.
Posted on 6/11/20 at 11:41 am to FooManChoo
quote:
My entire point is that without God, anyone can come up with their own definitions of "good" and "correct" and have those definitions be just as valid as any others. You have to have a standard to judge all other standards against, otherwise you have no basis to judge those standards as "good" or "bad".
People do that with a god. The concept of what is "good" and "bad" has shifted dramatically over time, even in the context of religions of all stripes. Morality has never been purely objective, for anyone. It always bends to self interest when necessary, even for those who believe in a god/creator.
This post was edited on 6/11/20 at 11:41 am
Posted on 6/11/20 at 11:42 am to ReauxlTide222
Most of the examples of humans doing bad things is because they think they are gods.
Posted on 6/11/20 at 11:42 am to FooManChoo
Lol, "reformed calvinist" with your trash dogma.
Which of the 144,000 "elect" are you?
Which of the 144,000 "elect" are you?
Posted on 6/11/20 at 11:43 am to ReauxlTide222
quote:You can come up with all sorts of definitions of "good" and "bad" without God. My point is that without God, there would be no way to objectively praise or condemn any of those definitions. They would all be individual preferences. Like I said, Hitler's definitions would be just as valid as Ghandi's in that paradigm.
You don’t think you could come up with a reasonable definition of good and bad without God?
quote:Yes, it does matter if you want to be intellectually consistent and be a rational person.
Also, an incredibly massive amount of terrible things have happened directly because of the idea of God. So at some point it doesn’t matter that the standard of good and bad is set by God’s example.
Evil occurs because of sin, not because of God's standard of goodness. Acknowledging God's moral standard provides a basis to condemn that evil. If you reject that standard, all you're left with is "I don't personally like that", to which it can be asked, "so what"?
This post was edited on 6/11/20 at 11:43 am
Posted on 6/11/20 at 11:43 am to ReauxlTide222
quote:
You don’t think you could come up with a reasonable definition of good and bad without God?
Why don’t you give it a shot?
Posted on 6/11/20 at 11:43 am to Indefatigable
quote:
The problem is that in order for this line of thinking to be a universal or objective truth, you have to already believe in god and it only applies to people who already believe the "truth" of that statement.
Either I missed this or you just added it.
Having gone to Catholic School I'm sure you are familiar with the tenets of common grace. When God provides rain, it rains on everyone's fields- not just believers. Understanding of good & evil applies to all, even those who don't believe
Posted on 6/11/20 at 11:44 am to CoachDon
Every day we stray further from God’s light
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