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Message
re: Why isn't the Trinity mentioned in the bible?
Posted on 11/28/22 at 11:25 am to squid_hunt
Posted on 11/28/22 at 11:25 am to squid_hunt
God is whatever it needs to be to get the message across.
1
Posted on 11/28/22 at 11:28 am to kingbob
quote:
God is whatever it needs to be to get the message across.
He has been very clear about who he is and that he doesn't change. You can decide to accept that or not, but a capricious, mutable God makes the Bible nonsense and inaccurate.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 11:29 am to Lynxrufus2012
This!!!
Posted on 11/28/22 at 11:33 am to AggieHank86
Do you suppose the ants contemplate their existence and the creation of the ant farm?
Hell, maybe they do and the creator of our existence is as ignorant of our ability to contemplate such things as the ant farm maker.
Hell, maybe they do and the creator of our existence is as ignorant of our ability to contemplate such things as the ant farm maker.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 11:33 am to squid_hunt
I think you’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. Trying to focus on the minutiae of what god is or how many angels can fit on a pin is meaningless. What you do with the teachings of God, with the people he surrounds you with, and with the challenges he places before you in your life are what is most important. Religion offers many answers to “why”, and science offers glimpses into “how”. At the end of the day, what God calls us to do as individuals is remarkably simple, but never confuse simplicity with ease.
God fills our lives with challenges and people meant to mold us into the person we need to be to accomplish a given mission. Now, he won’t expressly tell any of us what that mission is because finding it is half the battle. Whether we rise to the occasion, fail, or refuse to even try is entirely up to us.
We are never beyond redemption, and God never ceases providing opportunities, not even after we die. No one is ever “too far gone”. No one is beyond God’s love. All of us have every tool we need to save ourselves, and God will give us the opportunities to do so at every turn.
God fills our lives with challenges and people meant to mold us into the person we need to be to accomplish a given mission. Now, he won’t expressly tell any of us what that mission is because finding it is half the battle. Whether we rise to the occasion, fail, or refuse to even try is entirely up to us.
We are never beyond redemption, and God never ceases providing opportunities, not even after we die. No one is ever “too far gone”. No one is beyond God’s love. All of us have every tool we need to save ourselves, and God will give us the opportunities to do so at every turn.
This post was edited on 11/28/22 at 11:39 am
Posted on 11/28/22 at 11:34 am to Y.A. Tittle
quote:You may be taking both the watchmaker analogy and the ant farm analogy a bit too literally.
Do you suppose the ants contemplate their existence and the creation of the ant farm?
They are analogies, not identities.
This post was edited on 11/28/22 at 11:35 am
Posted on 11/28/22 at 11:38 am to AggieHank86
quote:
You may be taking both the watchmaker analogy and the ant farm analogy a bit too literally.
Could be. Perhaps your contemplation of the subject runs a bit more shallow than you want to realize, though.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 11:42 am to kingbob
quote:
kingbob
While I agree that we can get wrapped around the axle with knowledge, I don't believe the nature of God is one of those insignificant details. A lot of the basis of our faith is who God is. If you don't believe he is who he says he is, you will dismiss many warnings and passages as fictional or allegory. If you don't believe him when he says he is holy you won't think your sin is a big deal. If you believe he changes with the wind, you will believe the charlatans pushing a special dispensation today.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 11:43 am to squid_hunt
quote:
Right. Step one is I am lost and need a Saviour.
I've recently gone back and forth on Jesus is God is the Holy Spirit Trinity or a more subordinationist or even adoptionist stance as I think there are verses that support all three beliefs.
However, I don't think that matters for salvation. Romans 10:9 is pretty clear that there are only two requirements to be saved. Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead.
That's it.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 11:44 am to AggieHank86
quote:
If I had to categorize myself, I would use the term “agnostic deist.” I do not believe strongly in the either the existence or non-existence of a creator deity.
Hank -- we may not agree on much at all, but I must credit you with answering the bell.
As a self-coined “agnostic deist,” materially speaking how do you rationalize coded DNA? Or, looking at an 50 foot oak that began as an acorn? How (and why) sperm penetrates a female egg, forming one cell, then multiplying into countless billions, developing self-sustaining systems, duplicating generation after generation of itself?
Even if you discount the material world miracles and complications of self-replication codes and survival-instinct code, how does a "Big Bang" (for instance) embed innate emotions, morality and transcendent thought?
Intellectually speaking, even mathematically speaking -- how can one have *any* ambivalence of concluding an Author whose Creation, Purpose, System and (most importantly) End Game exists?
Have you considered Scripture may just be THE "Instruction Manual" for Mankind? AND "Test"?
As a related aside -- have you ever explored any of the non-canonical Apocryphal Books and texts? (like The Book of Enoch, Jubilees).
There is some amazing overlap of events and prophecies along with frighting descriptions and names -- some of which including alarming and gruesome details on pre-Flood earth and the lot of eternal souls and destinations.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 11:45 am to ruffleforeskin
1. Matthew 3:16
“After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him.”
2. Matthew 12:28
“But if I [Jesus] cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.”
3. Matthew 28:19
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit . . .”
4. Luke 3:22
“And the Holy Spirit descended upon Him [Jesus] in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My [the Father’s] beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”
5. John 14:26
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My [Jesus’] name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”
6. John 15:26
“When the Helper comes, whom I [Jesus] will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me . . .”
7. Acts 1:4
“Gathering them together, He [Jesus] commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me . . .”
8. Acts 2:33
“Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He [Jesus] has poured forth this which you both see and hear.”
9. Acts 10:38
“You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.”
10. Romans 1:4
“Who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord . . .”
11. Romans 8:9
“However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.”
12. 1 Corinthians 6:11
Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
13. 2 Corinthians 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
14. Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
15. Ephesians 1:17
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.
16. Ephesians 2:18
For through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
17. Ephesians 2:22
In whom [Jesus] you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
18. Titus 3:6
Whom [the Holy Spirit] He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior.
19. Hebrews 9:14
How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
20. 1 Peter 1:2
According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: may grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
21. Isaiah 48:16
“After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him.”
2. Matthew 12:28
“But if I [Jesus] cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.”
3. Matthew 28:19
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit . . .”
4. Luke 3:22
“And the Holy Spirit descended upon Him [Jesus] in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My [the Father’s] beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”
5. John 14:26
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My [Jesus’] name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”
6. John 15:26
“When the Helper comes, whom I [Jesus] will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me . . .”
7. Acts 1:4
“Gathering them together, He [Jesus] commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me . . .”
8. Acts 2:33
“Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He [Jesus] has poured forth this which you both see and hear.”
9. Acts 10:38
“You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.”
10. Romans 1:4
“Who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord . . .”
11. Romans 8:9
“However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.”
12. 1 Corinthians 6:11
Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
13. 2 Corinthians 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
14. Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
15. Ephesians 1:17
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.
16. Ephesians 2:18
For through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
17. Ephesians 2:22
In whom [Jesus] you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
18. Titus 3:6
Whom [the Holy Spirit] He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior.
19. Hebrews 9:14
How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
20. 1 Peter 1:2
According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: may grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
21. Isaiah 48:16
Posted on 11/28/22 at 11:48 am to squid_hunt
God doesn’t change. His methods of getting his message across do. Any good teacher will tell you that the art of teaching is conveying the same lesson a dozen different ways so that a dozen different students, who each learn differently, all can understand and learn the material. Sometimes he sends a flood, sometimes he sends a friend, a burning bush, or just a weird feeling that you absolutely must talk to that total stranger across the room.
God is the same God, but God is also infinitely adaptable to teach lessons to every kind of student.
God is the same God, but God is also infinitely adaptable to teach lessons to every kind of student.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 11:49 am to cajunangelle
I don't think the OP was arguing that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were never mentioned together in the Bible.
Only that the idea that they were all the same being isn't explicitly stated in the Bible.
I don't have a stance either way, as this isn't something I've looked into.
I will say, though, that Christianity has changed a lot over the last two millennia, so it wouldn't surprise me to learn that it never was explicitly stated.
Only that the idea that they were all the same being isn't explicitly stated in the Bible.
I don't have a stance either way, as this isn't something I've looked into.
I will say, though, that Christianity has changed a lot over the last two millennia, so it wouldn't surprise me to learn that it never was explicitly stated.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 11:52 am to AggieHank86
No selective edit here, Hank. In the O.T. Moses asked God, "Who shall I say sends me?" God answers, "I AM."
When the term "I am" is used by Jesus in John 8:58, the meaning is very clear to those who were questioning him. He didn't simply claim to be equal with God. In this statement he claims to BE God.
John 8:58 " Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
Further study of the scriptures will show that in many instances angels would be worshipped by those to whom they appeared. The angels, without exception, refuse to accept worship and instead they direct worship away from themselves and toward God.
Christ, on the other hand, accepted worship and did not direct it away from himself.
I would think that a lawyer would be able to catch these not so subtle attributes from the records kept in scripture.
When the term "I am" is used by Jesus in John 8:58, the meaning is very clear to those who were questioning him. He didn't simply claim to be equal with God. In this statement he claims to BE God.
John 8:58 " Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
Further study of the scriptures will show that in many instances angels would be worshipped by those to whom they appeared. The angels, without exception, refuse to accept worship and instead they direct worship away from themselves and toward God.
Christ, on the other hand, accepted worship and did not direct it away from himself.
I would think that a lawyer would be able to catch these not so subtle attributes from the records kept in scripture.
This post was edited on 11/28/22 at 11:53 am
Posted on 11/28/22 at 11:56 am to kingbob
quote:
God doesn’t change.
So why was the religion updated with a version 2.0?
You can claim that the circumstances changed (Jesus getting crucified), not God. But can't you shift any change from the thing that's thought to have changed to the circumstances that inspired the thing to change?
Posted on 11/28/22 at 11:57 am to Azkiger
quote:Bingo.
I don't think the OP was arguing that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were never mentioned together in the Bible. Only that the idea that they were all the same being isn't explicitly stated in the Bible.
Every poster who has cited a specific verse has cited a verse which mentions the three as distinct entities, but not one poster has cited a verse which says “the Three are One.“
No one even suggested the existence of a “Trinity“ until Tertullian, almost 2 centuries after Jesus‘ death. It did not become official doctrine until another century later.
This post was edited on 11/28/22 at 12:00 pm
Posted on 11/28/22 at 12:02 pm to squid_hunt
quote:
Uh...source?
Source on what? Holy Spirit being a separate (female) deity?
quote:
Some said, "Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit." They are in error. They do not know what they are saying. When did a woman ever conceive by a woman?
Gospel of Philip
The Holy Spirit as feminine: Early Christian testimonies and their interpretation
Early Christians considered themselves to be "proper" Jews... Jews that did not adhere to the Mosaic/Levitical Law which they deemed heretical, in part due to that second temple Judaism being created by Persians and influenced by Persian and Babylonian religion. Why do you think the early Christians argued against the (second temple) Jewish law code and accepted Gentiles? Because that Mosaic law/exodus was heresy to them.
In my research and in my opinion, the best transitionary text between current Jewish Bible and New Testament is the first book of Enoch, which is canon in Ethiopian Orthodox Christian Church. The Ascension of Isaiah, which isn't canon in any current Christian church due to theological conflicts with later gospels, is a great step to understanding the writings of Paul. Those early Christians were still polytheists, and that was OK, and there was no need force a "trinity" into their theology because they didn't adhere to Moses' first commandment.
Look to the other Trinitarian religions for parallels when trying to understand the origins of Christian Trinitarianism. Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva come to mind.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 12:03 pm to Azkiger
Same God, same message, same goals, different approach. The tactile student and the audial learning student need a different lesson than the visual student to grasp the same lesson.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 12:05 pm to kingbob
quote:
The tactile student and the audial learning student need a different lesson than the visual student to grasp the same lesson.
But they're still taught that 2+2=4.
Not that 2+2=Stone sinners, and 2+2=Don't stone sinners.
This post was edited on 11/28/22 at 12:05 pm
Posted on 11/28/22 at 12:10 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
It did not become official doctrine until another century later.
This is incorrect. It did not become FULLY DEFINED doctrine until the First Council of Nicaea in AD 325. It was more definitively defined by the First Council of Constantinople in AD 381. Arius started the controversy when he began preaching that the Son was a created being and therefore lesser than the Father. This teaching ran counter to his bishop as well as the vast majority of the Christian world. In fact, of all the bishops who attended the council, all but two voted against Arius's teachings.
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