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re: Why isn't the Trinity mentioned in the bible?
Posted on 11/28/22 at 12:10 pm to Squirrelmeister
Posted on 11/28/22 at 12:10 pm to Squirrelmeister
A lot of people seem to believe that the Babylonians scooped up and took every Jew in the Levant back to Babylon. They almost certainly didn’t. They likely scooped up and took the elite, essentially as hostages. It was a common practice in the ancient world for controlling a conquered territory.
When the elite were allowed to return, they returned with a religion that was different in many ways from the religion which the common folk had continued to practice in the Levant.
When the elite were allowed to return, they returned with a religion that was different in many ways from the religion which the common folk had continued to practice in the Levant.
This post was edited on 11/28/22 at 12:44 pm
1
Posted on 11/28/22 at 12:12 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
As I have said before, you are a bright guy.
I'd like to think that I'm bright enough to know what I don't know. That while curiosity, the quest for knowledge, and occasionally healthy skepticism are good things, some things are beyond my (and everyone's) comprehension and understanding. That's where faith takes over.
quote:
I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that you are familiar with (and have probably read) the extensive scholarship tracing the development of Judaism from its origins in the early polytheistic Canaanite religion.
I was a History major at LSU. I've studied some of it. Enough to affirm my aforementioned faith. I guess it's all about perspective.
This post was edited on 11/28/22 at 12:13 pm
Posted on 11/28/22 at 12:13 pm to ruffleforeskin
quote:Follow up question: why is the trinity being mentioned on the PT?
Why isn't the Trinity mentioned in the bible?
Posted on 11/28/22 at 12:14 pm to BBONDS25
quote:
“Thinking people”, “thinking scholars”, etc. what an elementary way to try to elevate the validity of a weak argument.
Appeal to authority fallacy.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 12:15 pm to Godfather1
quote:
As I have said before, you are a bright guy.
I'm sure you're bright enough to know when someone is being condescending....
Posted on 11/28/22 at 12:19 pm to Swamp Angel
But in Mark, Jesus is clearly answering a question on if he was the Messiah/Son of Man. In John, Jesus did make the statement that before Abraham was born, Yahweh.
But before all of that Jesus said "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him."
Jesus makes a lot of references to being the Son, and to communicating to the Father. Often times He preached about putting his Father above all things, which is of course the greatest commandment; Love God with all your heart, your mind, and soul. Through Jesus, our sins are forgiven and our brokenness healed. But nothing, not even Jesus himself, stands before that greatest commandment that Jesus Himself told everyone. That's placing God above Jesus. Not with Jesus, not equal to Jesus, but above him. He may be seated at the right hand of the father, but he is not the father. I grew up Catholic, so this is a topic I have prayed and studied for a very long time. There are a couple things that can be, in my opinion, misinterpreted hinted at the trinity. However, there are way more cases of Jesus's own words saying he is not the same, and placing himself below his Father.
That being said, this is something I feel to be true. I refer to the bible for my beliefs, and I feel more evidence against than for. If you find that to not be true... I'm highly open to that. I am by no means a biblical scholar.
But before all of that Jesus said "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him."
Jesus makes a lot of references to being the Son, and to communicating to the Father. Often times He preached about putting his Father above all things, which is of course the greatest commandment; Love God with all your heart, your mind, and soul. Through Jesus, our sins are forgiven and our brokenness healed. But nothing, not even Jesus himself, stands before that greatest commandment that Jesus Himself told everyone. That's placing God above Jesus. Not with Jesus, not equal to Jesus, but above him. He may be seated at the right hand of the father, but he is not the father. I grew up Catholic, so this is a topic I have prayed and studied for a very long time. There are a couple things that can be, in my opinion, misinterpreted hinted at the trinity. However, there are way more cases of Jesus's own words saying he is not the same, and placing himself below his Father.
That being said, this is something I feel to be true. I refer to the bible for my beliefs, and I feel more evidence against than for. If you find that to not be true... I'm highly open to that. I am by no means a biblical scholar.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 12:26 pm to FooManChoo
quote:Do you have a reference for the quote from Clement? I'd like to read that
The early church fathers also referenced John. For example, Clement of Rome (35 - 99 AD) mentioned it was the last gospel to be written
Posted on 11/28/22 at 12:34 pm to ruffleforeskin
Nothing you just typed is true.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 12:38 pm to L.A.
quote:I had no recollection of this, either. Here is the Conclusion of an article that I found, evaluating which of the Books of the current Bible were likely known to Clement:quote:Do you have a reference for the quote from Clement?
The early church fathers also referenced John. For example, Clement of Rome (35 - 99 AD) mentioned it was the last gospel to be written
quote:LINK
Based on our analysis, we can say from Clement’s one surviving letter that his ‘New Testament’ consisted at least of these books:—
Books certainly in Clement’s ‘New Testament’:
Matthew
Luke
Romans
1 Corinthians
Titus
Hebrews
Books almost certainly in Clement’s ‘New Testament,’ albeit with some slight doubt:
Acts
Ephesians
1 Timothy
James
2 Peter
Books arguably in Clement’s ‘New Testament’ (but far from certain):
1 Peter
Revelation
Books possibly referred to:
Mark?
Notable absences from Clement’s ‘New Testament’:
John
1, 2, 3 John
This post was edited on 11/28/22 at 12:39 pm
Posted on 11/28/22 at 12:40 pm to AggieHank86
quote:AggieHank is correct on this
Every poster who has cited a specific verse has cited a verse which mentions the three as distinct entities, but not one poster has cited a verse which says “the Three are One.“
No one even suggested the existence of a “Trinity“ until Tertullian, almost 2 centuries after Jesus‘ death. It did not become official doctrine until another century later.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 12:41 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
When the elite were allowed to return, they returned with a religion that was different in many ways from the religion which the common folk had continued to practice in the Levant.
That was not taught in catechism.
The inhabitants of the land were dumbfounded when the Persians tried to tell them a guy named Moses led their ancestors out of slavery in Egypt. They had also never heard of a king named David.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 12:44 pm to AggieHank86
quote:Thank you
I had no recollection of this, either. Here is the Conclusion of an article that I found, evaluating which of the Books of the current Bible were likely known to Clement:
Posted on 11/28/22 at 12:45 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:Some of this is new to me, and it sounds interesting. Can you refer me to a book or an author addressing this matter?
The inhabitants of the land were dumbfounded when the Persians tried to tell them a guy named Moses led their ancestors out of slavery in Egypt. They had also never heard of a king named David.
Thx.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 12:45 pm to L.A.
quote:
Thank you
Posted on 11/28/22 at 12:47 pm to Eli Goldfinger
quote:
Green bell peppers
Onion
Celery
?
And don't forget the pope, Garlic
Posted on 11/28/22 at 12:54 pm to L.A.
quote:For some reason, I found this sub-topic interesting.
I had no recollection of this, either. Here is the Conclusion of an article that I found, evaluating which of the Books of the current Bible were likely known to Clement:quote:
Thank you
Foo was apparently thinking of Clement of Alexandria, not Rome. The Alexandrian "Clement" lived two generations AFTER the Roman "Clement." The LATTER "Clement" wrote in the now-lost "Hypotyposes" that John was the last written Gospel.
The latter "Clement" was not born until 150 AD and probably wrote the lost book in question around 180 AD. So, his reference to the Gospel of John certainly does nothing to establish that it was written prior to 100 AD.
LINK
This post was edited on 11/28/22 at 12:59 pm
Posted on 11/28/22 at 1:02 pm to ruffleforeskin
If you are really interested here is the link to the Biblical case for the Trinity. Google trinity carm if you don't trust the link
LINK
LINK
Posted on 11/28/22 at 1:03 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
a book or an author addressing this matter
Sorry I don’t have a link. I’ve read so much I don’t remember where I even read it. It’s basically circumstantial though. Take Moses for instance… he’s not in any biblical text written before about 500BCE. No historical names based on his before return from Babylonian exile. Moses myth is a composite based on a Greek demigod myth, an Egyptian demigod myth, and a story about king Sargon of Akkad. Moses’ law set the table for second temple religion, but before the return from exile, archaeologists find inscriptions of “YHWH and his Asherah”, figurines of various gods at various temples, and cooked pig bones and shellfish remains with human teeth marks within the confines of ancient Judah and Israel. The ark of the covenant was also a Persian creation.
ETA: there’s also no archaeological evidence of a Jewish slave population in Egypt including any Egyptian records and apparently they kept good records.
This post was edited on 11/28/22 at 1:06 pm
Posted on 11/28/22 at 1:04 pm to DesScorp
The only part of the Trinity that took two centuries was the formalization of the teaching. From the earliest days, the apostles and those they taught believed in God the Father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit.
Read the teachings of the apostles and it’s all there.
Read the teachings of the apostles and it’s all there.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 1:05 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:The general premise is consistent with the modification of Judaism during the Babylonian Captivity of the Hebrew elite. It would be interesting to see the scholarship.
Sorry I don’t have a link. I’ve read so much I don’t remember where I even read it. It’s basically circumstantial though. Take Moses for instance… he’s not in any biblical text written before about 500BCE. No historical names based on his before return from Babylonian exile. Moses myth is a composite based on a Greek demigod myth, an Egyptian demigod myth, and a story about king Sargon of Akkad. Moses’ law set the table for second temple religion, but before the return from exile, archaeologists find inscriptions of “YHWH and his Asherah”, figurines of various gods at various temples, and cooked pig bones and shellfish remains with human teeth marks within the confines of ancient Judah and Israel. The ark of the covenant was also a Persian creation.
It might also provide an explanation for the two distinct creation myths that were merged into a single Book in Genesis, among other inconsistencies in the Old Testament. Any attempt to merge two traditions is going to produce some of that.
This post was edited on 11/28/22 at 1:10 pm
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