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Started By
Message
FIFA World Club Rankings
Posted on 8/15/19 at 12:01 pm
Posted on 8/15/19 at 12:01 pm
Let me start by saying, I don't know a whole lot about soccer at an international level. With that said, when ATL United beat Club America last night I was curious about how these teams are perceived on a international level and whether there was any real way to compare the teams to see how big of an upset this might have been considered. That brought me to search for some sort of world club ranking system.
The link I found said it is updated through matches played August 11, 2019. It has Club America rated the 97th club in the world and ATL United as the 391st club in the world. (Top 5 are Liverpool, Manchester City, Barcelona, Bayern Munchen, Ajax Amsterdam)
World Club Rankings
Some questions:
Is there a more authoritative ranking than the one I found?
How do they possibly rank so many clubs with so little overlap between most of them?
How accurate do you think these world rankings are? Does 391 in the world sound about right for ATL United and 97 for Club America? Apparently Atlanta United is up 622 spots from last year.
I guess that is what happens when the club is less than 3 years old and has some quick success.
The link I found said it is updated through matches played August 11, 2019. It has Club America rated the 97th club in the world and ATL United as the 391st club in the world. (Top 5 are Liverpool, Manchester City, Barcelona, Bayern Munchen, Ajax Amsterdam)
World Club Rankings
Some questions:
Is there a more authoritative ranking than the one I found?
How do they possibly rank so many clubs with so little overlap between most of them?
How accurate do you think these world rankings are? Does 391 in the world sound about right for ATL United and 97 for Club America? Apparently Atlanta United is up 622 spots from last year.
I guess that is what happens when the club is less than 3 years old and has some quick success. 
8
Posted on 8/15/19 at 12:04 pm to elposter
I don’t think their methodology can accurately rate either new teams or teams that have made a shocking amount of improvements in 3-5 years.
Posted on 8/15/19 at 12:18 pm to elposter
quote:
ATL United as the 391st club in the world.
I don't know where I would put ATL in a listing of club teams, but I sure as hell know it wouldn't be that low.
Posted on 8/15/19 at 12:40 pm to elposter
I wouldn’t recommend this seeing that they have Portsmouth ranked over Aston Villa
Posted on 8/15/19 at 12:55 pm to elposter
Zenit 45th? Gfy
Posted on 8/15/19 at 1:36 pm to elposter
Real Madrid at 19?
Posted on 8/15/19 at 1:48 pm to elposter
So from the in depth responses so far, it seems the consensus is these rankings are shite?
Any other world club rankings out there that are better? Or is the concept of "world rankings" a fool's errand to begin and any attempt at an accurate ranking would be futile?
Any other world club rankings out there that are better? Or is the concept of "world rankings" a fool's errand to begin and any attempt at an accurate ranking would be futile?
Posted on 8/15/19 at 2:42 pm to lionward2014
quote:
I don't know where I would put ATL in a listing of club teams, but I sure as hell know it wouldn't be that low.
#391 beat #97 last night
Posted on 8/15/19 at 3:00 pm to elposter
The most efficient way to rank clubs, imo, is Elo.
LINK
LINK
quote:
The system or how this works The Elo system with a few modifications (home field advantage, goal difference, inter-league adjustments) is used to determine the club's Elo values. The match odds are based on a result histogram for the two club's Elo difference.
Elo
Elo equation
At the core of these ratings runs the Elo system, a widely used method to measure relative strength levels. The advantage of Elo lies in its simplicity, there is only one value per club for each point in time, the higher the better. The Elo difference between two clubs is directly linked to the win probability of both teams in a direct confrontation (draws counting as half win/ half loss): E = 1 / (10(-dr/400) + 1), where dr is the Elo point difference of the 2 clubs. This is the Elo equation.
Points Exchange
When clubs play each other and win or lose, they exchange points. The number of points exchanged must be determined so that a certain win rate between two clubs makes the Elo difference between both clubs converge towards the Elo difference that corresponds to this win rate. The following equation satisfies this constraint: ?Elo_1X2 = (R - E) * k, where R is the result (1 for win, 0.5 for draw, 0 for loss). There is one degree of freedom in this equation which in the weight index k that has to be chosen. A higher k will have the ratings converge quicker to their true values but will suffer from more variation. A smaller k provides more stable values that take longer to converge. ClubElo uses a weight index of k = 20.
Tilt
ClubElo introduces a second club metric next to Elo which is named Tilt. Tilt is designed to be a measure of offensiveness (not quality, that is what Elo is for). More specifically, it measures if there are more or less total goals than expected in games involving the club. The expectation refers to the long term average of games at the same Elo difference. Every game has an expected number of total goals. After a game, the tilt of a team (which is initialised at 1) is updated in the following way: New_tilt = 0.98 * Old_tilt + 0.02 *Game_total_goals/Opposition_tilt/Exp_Game_total_goals This adds another dimension to predicting exact results and can be shown to add accuracy. It is sometimes expressed as percentage.
Weighting goal difference
A win by a high margin is considered to be more significant than a win by a narrow margin. This is taken into account when the number of exchanged points is calculated. The points exchanged increase proportionally to the square root of the margin. At the same time, the expected number of points exchanged for a win or a loss should be according to the above Elo equation. The points exchanged for a win or a loss are determined through the following equation: ?Elo_margin = ?Elo_1goal * sqrt(margin), where ?Elo_1goal = ?Elo_1X2 / sum(sqrt(margin)*p_margin/p_1X2) p_margin is the likelyhood for a specific margin, p_1X2 is the likelyhood to win (or lose) by any margin. The sum is over all margins for a win or all margins for a loss.
Home Field Advantage
Clubs have from experience a higher probability to win games when they play at home. This would mean that on average home teams would win more Elo points than away teams. This would violate the constraint that the expected number of Elo points exchanged per match should always be 0. That is why ClubElo increases the Elo difference for a match by a certain number of Elo points, called HFA (for Home Field Advantage). As HFA can initially only be guessed, an algorithm is in place to make sure that this value converges to where it should be: Every day and for every country seperately, the system compares if home teams won more or less points than away teams. If home teams won more, HFA is increased, if away teams won more points, HFA is decreased according the the following equation: HFA += sum(?Elo)*0.075
Two-leg matches
Two-leg matches are considered one long match. The aggregated result over two legs determines the total number of exchanged points (sum of points exchanged after leg 1 and 2). Compared to a single game, the exchanged points are therefore multiplied by the square root of 2. A victory by away goals rule counts as a victory by a margin of half a goal. The points exchanged after the first leg are determined by the difference in outcome likelyhoods before leg one and after leg 1
Posted on 8/15/19 at 3:39 pm to McCaigBro69
Chivas USA is the 22nd ranked team in the US.
Posted on 8/15/19 at 5:06 pm to elposter
lol city #2
Posted on 8/15/19 at 5:06 pm to Pettifogger
I think ATL would compete in Liga MX, especially if they held on to Almiron. I started watching Liga MX some, and the bottom half teams are not good at all.
I only watch the last 20 minutes last night, but they looked better than Club America (granted they were playing a man down).
I only watch the last 20 minutes last night, but they looked better than Club America (granted they were playing a man down).
This post was edited on 8/15/19 at 5:08 pm
Posted on 8/15/19 at 5:24 pm to SeeeeK
quote:
lol city #2
Who would you have there? I have no problem with Pool being one. They are champions of Europe, but City have won twice and drawn once over the last calendar year against them which probably is the main reason they are at 2.
This post was edited on 8/15/19 at 5:33 pm
Posted on 8/15/19 at 6:21 pm to McCaigBro69
I went thru all 51 pages and shitty arse Rio grande valley didn’t even make the list lol
Posted on 8/15/19 at 6:28 pm to itawambadog
quote:And they somehow gained 24 points in the last year.
Chivas USA is the 22nd ranked team in the US.
Posted on 8/15/19 at 6:39 pm to Winston Cup
Lmaooo
Posted on 8/15/19 at 8:24 pm to itawambadog
Chivas USA 
I thought MLS shut that down.
This list is dogshit.
I thought MLS shut that down. This list is dogshit.
This post was edited on 8/15/19 at 8:25 pm
Posted on 8/15/19 at 8:56 pm to McCaigBro69
quote:
The most efficient way to rank clubs, imo, is Elo.
This site says Unai Emry is unemployed. Calls into question the entire system.
Posted on 8/15/19 at 9:00 pm to elposter
They have Chivas USA ranked 201st ...they do not even exist anymore.
Posted on 8/15/19 at 10:03 pm to Winston Cup
quote:
I went thru all 51 pages and shitty arse Rio grande valley didn’t even make the list lol
What page was Austin bold on
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