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Started By
Message
re: Lebron averaged 34.5, 8.5, and 10
Posted on 6/8/18 at 3:53 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
Posted on 6/8/18 at 3:53 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:Did that poster specifically say Lebron would lose to those teams? If not, then what is your point?
What does that have to do with my point?
1
Posted on 6/8/18 at 3:56 pm to CptBengal
quote:
early in HIS career.
good god. it;s like you idiots are hell bent on proving your gay hero invented basketball.
MJ didn't face the Lakers in the playoffs early in his career because he wasn't playing in the Finals and the Lakers were.
For the prime Lakers, MJ was losing to teams like the Bucks in the playoffs.
Posted on 6/8/18 at 3:56 pm to shel311
quote:
How efficient were his teammates combined scoring?
No idea.
quote:
The worst team Lebron ever faced in the Finals had a better Net Rating than the best team MJ ever had. Now you can argue that in literal terms all of Lebron's teams were not better than all the teams MJ faced, but the overall point is made, Lebron faced teams that were just in a different league as a whole compared to MJ, that's not real questionable based on the data.
And I can bring in the difference in 50 win teams each has faced to this point. It is frankly a negligible point trying to argue the differences in team quality and competition quality. The road LeBron has had to the finals I would argue has been much easier over his career. Finals opponents may have been tougher. It frankly evens out mostly though.
Posted on 6/8/18 at 3:58 pm to shel311
quote:
Did that poster specifically say Lebron would lose to those teams? If not, then what is your point?
I have no idea. My point was in response to anything he said. What does the Cavs winning the series have to do with the fact that the general consensus even against the Raptors and Celtics, was that LeBron wouldn't have enough around him to beat them?
Posted on 6/8/18 at 3:59 pm to CptBengal
quote:You know guys, all the times MJ faced the Lakers in the Finals "early in his career"
early in HIS career.
good god. it;s like you idiots are hell bent on proving your gay hero invented basketball.
Posted on 6/8/18 at 4:01 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:And I can tell you the avg wins in the East for teams Lebron played is 49 compared to MJ's 50(lsupride has posted and broken this down on the MSB many times). So that is actually negligible while their Finals opponents isn't even up for debate, obviously.
And I can bring in the difference in 50 win teams each has faced to this point.
quote:49 vs 50 wins is "much easier?"
The road LeBron has had to the finals I would argue has been much easier over his career.
quote:only if you think 50 avg wins is "much tougher" than 49.
Finals opponents may have been tougher. It frankly evens out mostly though.
Posted on 6/8/18 at 4:02 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
I have no idea. My point was in response to anything he said. What does the Cavs winning the series have to do with the fact that the general consensus even against the Raptors and Celtics, was that LeBron wouldn't have enough around him to beat them?
You're asking me to explain the thoughts of other people. I don't know how I'm supposed to answer that.
Posted on 6/8/18 at 4:03 pm to shel311
quote:
And I can tell you the avg wins in the East for teams Lebron played is 49 compared to MJ's 50(lsupride has posted and broken this down on the MSB many times). So that is actually negligible while their Finals opponents isn't even up for debate, obviously.
quote:
49 vs 50 wins is "much easier?"
quote:
only if you think 50 avg wins is "much tougher" than 49.
Right. So as I said, trying to argue competition quality is basically negligible to the argument. Thank you for doubling down on this.
Posted on 6/8/18 at 4:05 pm to Goldrush25
quote:
You're asking me to explain the thoughts of other people. I don't know how I'm supposed to answer that.
No, I asked you to explain how the Cavs winning a series has anything to do with my statement that the consensus that LeBron didn't have enough help to win.
Telling me that the Cavs won the series has no bearing on the fact that the general consensus was that they weren't a good enough team to do so. It speaks volumes to LeBron's play. He however has no bearing on the point I made.
Posted on 6/8/18 at 4:06 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:What?
Right. So as I said, trying to argue competition quality is basically negligible to the argument. Thank you for doubling down on this.
You're essentially saying that 49 wins compared to 50 cancels out the fact that Lebron has played 9 teams with a better Net Rating than any of the 6 MJ played.
Is that what you're actually saying?
Posted on 6/8/18 at 4:08 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
And I can bring in the difference in 50 win teams each has faced to this point. It is frankly a negligible point trying to argue the differences in team quality and competition quality. The road LeBron has had to the finals I would argue has been much easier over his career. Finals opponents may have been tougher. It frankly evens out mostly though.
"50 win teams" is only a relative indication of a team's strength. A 50 win team in an expansion era that MJ played in isn't necessarily as good as a 50 win team of today. You have to actually look at the teams, their composition, statistics and results.
quote:
Telling me that the Cavs won the series has no bearing on the fact that the general consensus was that they weren't a good enough team to do so
I still don't really know what point you're making about the general consensus. Sometimes the wisdom of the crowd is crap.
This post was edited on 6/8/18 at 4:12 pm
Posted on 6/8/18 at 4:11 pm to shel311
quote:
You're essentially saying that 49 wins compared to 50 cancels out the fact that Lebron has played 9 teams with a better Net Rating than any of the 6 MJ played.
Is that what you're actually saying?
No, not in the slightest.
You are getting way to hung up on the 50 stat. I only brought that up as a counter point when you made your point about competition. My point is that the difference in the competition the two of them have faced has been largely negligible. Both faced good competition and bad competition. It is not a point worth using in the debate of tGOAT. As I said, I believe LeBron's finals competition has been more difficult, but I think his road to the finals has been less difficult.
Posted on 6/8/18 at 4:13 pm to Goldrush25
quote:
"50 win teams" is only a relative indication of a team's strength. A 50 win team in an expansion era that MJ played in isn't necessarily as good as a 50 win team of today. You have to actually look at the teams, their composition, statistics and results.
Jesus christ you guys are getting way too hung up on the 50 win team stat. I just used that as an example of an argument the other way. Both LeBron and Jordan have faced very good competition through their 14 seasons. My point is that you aren't going to make a strong enough point one way or the other that their individual competition was a magnitude different to have any affect.
Posted on 6/8/18 at 4:13 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:But it's a terrible counterpart, there is no comparison between what you pointed out and the data I pointed out, so i have no clue what you were trying to there, to be honest.
I only brought that up as a counter point when you made your point about competition.
quote:But the data suggests this is not so. What they faced in the East? Yes, largely negligible, completely agree. What they faced in the Finals? No comparison, Lebron's road was easily much tougher without question.
My point is that the difference in the competition the two of them have faced has been largely negligible.
quote:Completely agree here as I'm not a "count the rings" guy.
It is not a point worth using in the debate of tGOAT.
Posted on 6/8/18 at 4:14 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
As I said, I believe LeBron's finals competition has been more difficult, but I think his road to the finals has been less difficult.
Perhaps, but what are we talking about here? None of those teams MJ rolled over were championship caliber either. When he left for 1 1/2 years they got beat up on by the Western Conference. When MJ retired the Western conference dominated the NBA until the Pistons won in 2004.
If they were at least putting up a serious challenge to win a championship then that'd be a huge feather in MJ's cap that he held those guys down until he retired, but he beat up on bum teams in the East that had no shot to beat him, just like Lebron's doing.
This post was edited on 6/8/18 at 4:17 pm
Posted on 6/8/18 at 4:20 pm to shel311
quote:
But it's a terrible counterpart, there is no comparison between what you pointed out and the data I pointed out, so i have no clue what you were trying to there, to be honest.
Good lord. It wasn't a direct counterpoint to your argument. It was just a start to my point that there are arguments both ways as to who's competition was harder. Since you seemingly can't get over the 50 win thing, just forget I said it.
quote:
But the data suggests this is not so. What they faced in the East? Yes, largely negligible, completely agree. What they faced in the Finals? No comparison, Lebron's road was easily much tougher without question.
The data is in favor of LeBron having the tougher finals opponents, not the road to the finals. The road to the finals was tougher for Jordan, but once he got to the finals he was pretty golden. The road to the finals was easier for LeBron, but his toughest challenge was usually the finals matchup.
quote:
Completely agree here as I'm not a "count the rings" guy.
Meh ring count is still important, its just not the end all be all of the discussion.
Posted on 6/8/18 at 4:21 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
Right. So as I said, trying to argue competition quality is basically negligible to the argument. Thank you for doubling down on this.
Actually, it supports the idea LeBron faced weaker teams than MJ to get to the Finals and MJ faced weaker teams than LeBron once in the finals.
That doesn't make competition negligible, it actually tends to suggest the most important variable is strength of competition, not LeBron or MJ.
If LeBron faced fewer 50 win teams, that is an easier road to the finals. That would explain why he made the finals more. MJ faced weaker teams from the west, which would explain the better winning % in the finals.
Posted on 6/8/18 at 4:27 pm to Rep520
quote:
Actually, it supports the idea LeBron faced weaker teams than MJ to get to the Finals and MJ faced weaker teams than LeBron once in the finals.
That doesn't make competition negligible, it actually tends to suggest the most important variable is strength of competition, not LeBron or MJ.
If LeBron faced fewer 50 win teams, that is an easier road to the finals. That would explain why he made the finals more. MJ faced weaker teams from the west, which would explain the better winning % in the finals.
Sure. My point of it being negligible is that when arguing who has done a better job, sighting the competition they played against doesn't really make much of a point because frankly it isn't that far off from one another.
I would also argue LeBron has actually had the better teams, but not by a margin that is worth tilting a scale one way or another (8/14 vs 6/14). So, when judging how both have performed, quality of their teams and their competition is not a significant factor to use as a excuse or benefit.
This post was edited on 6/8/18 at 4:30 pm
Posted on 6/8/18 at 5:48 pm to Rep520
It's hilarious how you guys try to make that Bucks team out as some 8 seed piece of shite lol
Posted on 6/8/18 at 5:50 pm to shel311
So we use "net rating" for finals opponents but use average wins for East opponents?
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