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1
Posted on 2/28/18 at 1:49 pm to Teufelhunden
But another thing I thought was interesting.. Koresh's relationship with the sheriff. He seemed to be welcoming of Koresh and those with him.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 1:52 pm to Teufelhunden
quote:
Well, killing most of the children is one way.
Massive screw up. It was the FBI's biggest mistake since Ruby Ridge.
They seem bent on pissing away any credibility they have today too.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 1:53 pm to Teufelhunden
quote:
shite, sorry for the spoiler.
It's cool. That's not the sole reason I have been watching it.. I am curious to see how people inside were reacting right before and during the fire.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 1:56 pm to lsu1919
It was obvious the government didn’t want to arrest him. 2 days before the raid, local sheriff spoke with him at the grocery store.
Another flaw, the Sheriff didn’t know the Feds were coming ( I believe this was unlawful ). And I also believe this was the 1st use of military tanks on US soil against it’s own citizens. Koresh was a looney toon, but still deserved his rights, along with the children.
Another flaw, the Sheriff didn’t know the Feds were coming ( I believe this was unlawful ). And I also believe this was the 1st use of military tanks on US soil against it’s own citizens. Koresh was a looney toon, but still deserved his rights, along with the children.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 1:57 pm to AUCE05
quote:
Yeah. I don't see how people can take up for the guy. He was sexually abusing children. We had to stop him.
I am not really taking up for him.. But I blame the federal government more than I do him... when it comes to how things ended.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 2:03 pm to jrodLSUke
quote:
Those Dravidian sickos were 100% abusing underage girls
This isn't reason to kill 70+ people
Posted on 2/28/18 at 2:10 pm to OweO
The Paramount Waco series actually makes David seem like a nice guy imo. Paints the feds in an awful light, which it should have. There was no reason for 80 people to die and for the feds to bring fricking tanks in. It was ridiculous.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 2:11 pm to jrodLSUke
I've always thought that if the ATF etc had waited, one of the husbands was bound to wise up and smoke DK.
Maybe not, but if some wacko tells me he can frick my wife and I can't, I'd be pretty pissed.
But I wouldn't be in a cult either so...
Maybe not, but if some wacko tells me he can frick my wife and I can't, I'd be pretty pissed.
But I wouldn't be in a cult either so...
Posted on 2/28/18 at 2:18 pm to AUCE05
quote:
I mean, we couldn't set still and let this nut job abuse children. The ending sucks, but I agree with the intent of what Reno was trying to do.
The intent was never the issue, the execution of the operation was. Instead of going in like storm troopers, wait for him to come into town, which he apparently did regularly, and arrest him en route.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 2:19 pm to OweO
I have explained this before on this board. Everyone cites the “could have arrested Koresh at the grocery store” thing as the reason things went sideways. Here is why that wouldn’t have worked. The ATF had an arrest warrant AND A SEARCH WARRANT for the compound. They had to go out there one way or the other. The Davidians had a stockpile of illegal machine guns and hand grenades. It wasn’t like they were going to leave those cult members out there with that stuff. It was believed that if they arrested Koresh off site the members would likely either commit mass suicide (as they did with the fire) or go ballistic and possibly enter town with the weapons to “rescue” Koresh.
So, since they had to arrest him and seize the weapons, why not do it all at once? The entire raid was based on surprise, which they lost through a series of blunders, and arresting him off site would have alerted the compound. It was known that all the men worked in the fields during the day and the weapons were all locked in a second story armory. The plan called for pulling the cattle trailers between the men in the fields and the compound and then seizing the armory. As it turned out, the Davidians were alerted and the men were all in the compound and armed when the ATF arrived.
As for using the tanks during the siege, the Davidians has a fricking .50 caliber M2 machine gun. The only thing with armor that could stand up to it were the tank recovery vehicles. FWIW, they used the tank recovery vehicles and not the actual tank with the cannon on it. The recovery vehicle is the same bottom but has a big crane on the turret.
So, since they had to arrest him and seize the weapons, why not do it all at once? The entire raid was based on surprise, which they lost through a series of blunders, and arresting him off site would have alerted the compound. It was known that all the men worked in the fields during the day and the weapons were all locked in a second story armory. The plan called for pulling the cattle trailers between the men in the fields and the compound and then seizing the armory. As it turned out, the Davidians were alerted and the men were all in the compound and armed when the ATF arrived.
As for using the tanks during the siege, the Davidians has a fricking .50 caliber M2 machine gun. The only thing with armor that could stand up to it were the tank recovery vehicles. FWIW, they used the tank recovery vehicles and not the actual tank with the cannon on it. The recovery vehicle is the same bottom but has a big crane on the turret.
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 2:23 pm
Posted on 2/28/18 at 2:22 pm to jbgleason
quote:
Here is why that wouldn’t have worked. The ATF had an arrest warrant AND A SEARCH WARRANT for the compound. They had to go out there one way or the other.
Indeed they did but the two did not have to happen simultaneously, they are two different warrants. If Koresh is removed from the situation, the odds probably go up for a less lethal end result. We'll never know now.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 2:24 pm to mdomingue
Did you not read my post?
Posted on 2/28/18 at 2:30 pm to jbgleason
quote:
Did you not read my post?
I did, but it just goes to show how bad the leadership and plan was further. They planned this giant arse raid without knowing who or what they were dealing with, he was very much the head of the snake and removing him from that compound and those people wouldn't of lasted that siege if they got to that point at all.
They lost the element of surprise and knew they lost the element of surprise and did it anyway. You cannot defend the ATF, they were complete boneheads.
The end of the raid was payback, you cannot beat the government in a firefight and live. The a-holes at Ruby Ridge still want to get Weaver if you watch the docs on them.
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 2:35 pm
Posted on 2/28/18 at 2:37 pm to Dam Guide
quote:
They lost the element of surprise and knew they lost the element of surprise and did it anyway. You cannot defend the ATF, they were complete boneheads.
I don't think anyone is necessarily defending what the ATF ended up doing. Just that it wasn't as easy as arresting Koresh in town and getting a peaceful surrender at the compound.
Just to clarify, I'm talking about their initial approach. Once the surprise element was blown, the whole thing became a clusterfrick.
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 2:46 pm
Posted on 2/28/18 at 2:38 pm to mdomingue
quote:
Indeed they did but the two did not have to happen simultaneously, they are two different warrants. If Koresh is removed from the situation, the odds probably go up for a less lethal end result.
Exactly, chop the head off the snake approach. Taking Koresh off-site probably would have saved the lives of those children. Every other child not fathered by Koresh was eventually released.
The ATF should have put the lives of those children first. Unfortunatlely they didn't, and over 20 kids were burned alive.
The coward Koresh took a bullet to the head first, and didn't even think of sparing the lives of children from that inferno.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 2:38 pm to Dam Guide
quote:
They lost the element of surprise and knew they lost the element of surprise and did it anyway.
Bingo. THAT is what cost lives. I honestly believe that with surprise the plan would have worked and none of this would be history. Once they knew the element of surprise was lost, the bosses decided to push ahead because they were worried about their careers. frickheads should have been prosecuted for negligent homicide. Instead they lied to Congress and were promoted. There is no defense for that.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 2:47 pm to jbgleason
quote:
Bingo. THAT is what cost lives. I honestly believe that with surprise the plan would have worked and none of this would be history. Once they knew the element of surprise was lost, the bosses decided to push ahead because they were worried about their careers. frickheads should have been prosecuted for negligent homicide. Instead they lied to Congress and were promoted. There is no defense for that.
Even without the loss of surprise, it wasn't a good idea. They weren't trained for something this large and really didn't research the situation like they should of done.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 2:57 pm to jbgleason
you seem to know much more than others about the details of this sad event. Please tell me exactly what the ATF did wrong to mess this up.
The reason I ask is my sister lived next door and remains close friends with one of the ATF agents who actually knocked on the door to present the warrant. His partner was shot at close range through the front door and killed instantly - he was wounded badly but was able to run several feet into the yard to hide behind a car while backup support was brought in to rescue him. He almost died after being hospitalized in serious condition for weeks.
My assumption has always been that the follow-up "raid" by the ATF and full-blown "cannons" was due to an unsolicited attack on these two ATF officers - there was no other major support in the immediate area for several minutes. And yes, the "leak" is probably what caused the final battle to occur, but the major over-reaction was, according to the ATF friend, strictly on Koresh's part - not the ATF. When an officer is killed trying to deliver a search warrant, all bets are off. Not saying I like the idea of seeing multiple innocent children killed at all - and, maybe there was every opportunity for the FBI and other forces to still manage to force a surrender, but perhaps the FBI knew something we didn't know about what might have happened next without them taking some "offensive" actions.
The reason I ask is my sister lived next door and remains close friends with one of the ATF agents who actually knocked on the door to present the warrant. His partner was shot at close range through the front door and killed instantly - he was wounded badly but was able to run several feet into the yard to hide behind a car while backup support was brought in to rescue him. He almost died after being hospitalized in serious condition for weeks.
My assumption has always been that the follow-up "raid" by the ATF and full-blown "cannons" was due to an unsolicited attack on these two ATF officers - there was no other major support in the immediate area for several minutes. And yes, the "leak" is probably what caused the final battle to occur, but the major over-reaction was, according to the ATF friend, strictly on Koresh's part - not the ATF. When an officer is killed trying to deliver a search warrant, all bets are off. Not saying I like the idea of seeing multiple innocent children killed at all - and, maybe there was every opportunity for the FBI and other forces to still manage to force a surrender, but perhaps the FBI knew something we didn't know about what might have happened next without them taking some "offensive" actions.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 3:09 pm to TiggerB8t
And I might add.....the ATF officer friend who was injured is not your stereotypical barnstorming, psycho, macho cop with a gun out to kill someone. He (and his wife), now well into their 70's, are some of the most kind-hearted, generous, and mild-mannered people you'd ever meet - actually, a real hero type. The idea of having (and being willing) to be one of two officers to deliver that warrant to the front door speaks to his bravery..... absolute opposite to what we saw last week in FL....so, while the BS we've witnessed at the top of these agencies with the "Russian" investigations makes me wary of all these bastards, it shouldn't tarnish some of the heroes on the ground. I am 100% sure that this guy had one intention only - get Koresh out of there as quickly and peacefully as possible without risking any lives.
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