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re: Flight from Jakarta Crashes into the Ocean
Posted on 10/29/18 at 7:58 am to WestSideTiger
Posted on 10/29/18 at 7:58 am to WestSideTiger
The altitude is irratic as hell. Has to be some sort of pilot error? Why would you continue to try and climb if there was an engine issue? They made multiple drops? I would think at some point way earlier on you stop trying to climb and simply gain enough speed to turn around to head back to the airport?
2
Posted on 10/29/18 at 7:59 am to GetCocky11
Reports this morning that the plane had a technical issue on the prior flight that was reviewed and resolved.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 8:18 am to biscuitsngravy
quote:NY Times
“The erratic flight path makes us suspect a problem with the pitot-static system,” said Gerry Soejatman, an Indonesian aviation expert, referring to the instruments used to record the flight’s airborne speed and altitude.
Mr. Soejatman said he had looked at the flight data from Sunday’s flight and noted a “similar erratic climb and groundspeed problem,” leading him to suspect a problem with the instruments had also been an issue then.
Several plane crashes have been blamed on blockages or other problems with pitot tubes, a probe on the outside of the aircraft, which resulted in erroneous speed or altitude readings, Mr. Soejatman said.
I wonder if the pilots took measures similar to the AirFrance 447 pilots when the pitot tubes malfunctioned. Per Wikipedia
quote:
Air France Flight 447 (AF447/AFR447)[a] was a scheduled passenger international flight from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, to Paris, France, which crashed on 1 June 2009. The Airbus A330, operated by Air France, stalled and did not recover, eventually crashing into the Atlantic Ocean at 02:14 UTC, killing all 228 passengers and crew on board the aircraft.
The BEA's final report, released at a news conference on 5 July 2012, concluded that the aircraft crashed after temporary inconsistencies between the airspeed measurements – likely due to the aircraft's pitot tubes being obstructed by ice crystals – caused the autopilot to disconnect, after which the crew reacted incorrectly and ultimately caused the aircraft to enter an aerodynamic stall, from which it did not recover.
This post was edited on 10/29/18 at 8:32 am
Posted on 10/29/18 at 8:37 am to When in Rome
Posted on 10/29/18 at 8:38 am to Michael T. Tiger
They got to their destination way ahead of schedule.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 8:39 am to When in Rome
quote:
ultimately caused the aircraft to enter an aerodynamic stall, from which it did not recover.
It's definitely plausible.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 8:46 am to RogerTheShrubber
Reading the Air France 447 account is so frustrating because the crash could have potentially been avoided had the one pilot not made the critical error of continually moving the nose up, solidifying the stall.
Air France 447 Wikipedia:
Air France 447 Wikipedia:
quote:
At the same time he abruptly pulled back on his side-stick, raising the nose. This action was unnecessary and excessive under the circumstances.[51] The aircraft's stall warning sounded briefly twice due to the angle of attack tolerance being exceeded, and the aircraft's recorded airspeed dropped sharply from 274 knots (507 km/h; 315 mph) to 52 knots (96 km/h; 60 mph). The aircraft's angle of attack increased, and the aircraft started to climb above its cruising level of FL350. By the time the pilot had control of the aircraft's roll, it was climbing at nearly 7,000 feet per minute (36 m/s)[50] (for comparison, typical normal rate of climb for modern airliners is only 2,000–3,000 feet per minute (10–15 m/s) at sea level, and much smaller at high altitude).
At 02:10:34 UTC, after displaying incorrectly for half a minute, the left-side instruments recorded a sharp rise in airspeed to 223 knots (413 km/h; 257 mph), as did the Integrated Standby Instrument System (ISIS) 33 seconds later[52] (the right-side instruments are not recorded by the recorder). The icing event had lasted for just over a minute.[53][54][55] The pilot continued making nose-up inputs. The trimmable horizontal stabilizer (THS) moved from three to 13 degrees nose-up in about one minute, and remained in that latter position until the end of the flight.
At 02:11:10 UTC, the aircraft had climbed to its maximum altitude of around 38,000 feet (12,000 m). There, its angle of attack was 16 degrees, and the engine thrust levers were in the fully forward Takeoff/Go-around detent (TOGA). As the aircraft began to descend, the angle of attack rapidly increased toward 30 degrees. A second consequence of the reconfiguration into alternate law was that stall protection no longer operated. Whereas in normal law, the aircraft's flight management computers would have acted to prevent such a high angle of attack, in alternate law this did not happen. (Indeed, the switch into alternate law occurred precisely because the computers, denied reliable speed data, were no longer able to provide such protection – nor many of the other functions expected of normal law).[56] The wings lost lift and the aircraft stalled.[3]
In response to the stall, first officer Robert took over control and pushed his control stick forward to lower the nose and recover from the stall; as Bonin was still pulling his control stick back, the inputs cancelled each other out.
At 02:11:40 UTC, captain Dubois re-entered the cockpit after being summoned by first officer Robert. Noticing the various alarms going off, he urgently asked the two crew members: "What the hell are you doing?". The angle of attack had then reached 40 degrees, and the aircraft had descended to 35,000 feet (11,000 m) with the engines running at almost 100% N1 (the rotational speed of the front intake fan, which delivers most of a turbofan engine's thrust). The stall warnings stopped, as all airspeed indications were now considered invalid by the aircraft's computer due to the high angle of attack.[57] The aircraft had its nose above the horizon but was descending steeply.
Roughly 20 seconds later, at 02:12 UTC, the pilot decreased the aircraft's pitch slightly, airspeed indications became valid, and the stall warning sounded again; it then sounded intermittently for the remaining duration of the flight, but stopped when the pilot increased the aircraft's nose-up pitch. From there until the end of the flight, the angle of attack never dropped below 35 degrees. From the time the aircraft stalled until its impact with the ocean, the engines were primarily developing either 100 percent N1 or TOGA thrust, though they were briefly spooled down to about 50 percent N1 on two occasions. The engines always responded to commands and were developing in excess of 100 percent N1 when the flight ended. First officer Robert responded with: "We've lost all control of the aeroplane, we don’t understand anything, we’ve tried everything" and then: "Climb climb climb climb". When Bonin replied: "But I’ve been at maximum nose-up for a while!" captain Dubois realized Bonin was causing the stall, causing him to shout: "No no no, don’t climb!"
The aircraft was now too low to recover from the stall. Shortly thereafter, the Ground proximity warning system sounded an alarm, warning the crew about the aircraft's now imminent crash with the ocean. Bonin, realizing the situation was now hopeless, said: "frick! We're going to crash! This can't be true. But what's happening?" The last CVR recording was captain Dubois saying: "[ten] degrees pitch attitude."
The flight data recordings stopped at 02:14:28 UTC, or three hours 45 minutes after takeoff. At that point, the aircraft's ground speed was 107 knots (198 km/h; 123 mph), and it was descending at 10,912 feet per minute (55.43 m/s) (108 knots (200 km/h; 124 mph) of vertical speed). Its pitch was 16.2 degrees (nose up), with a roll angle of 5.3 degrees left. During its descent, the aircraft had turned more than 180 degrees to the right to a compass heading of 270 degrees. The aircraft remained stalled during its entire 3 minute 30 second descent from 38,000 feet (12,000 m).[58] The aircraft crashed belly-first into the ocean at a speed of 152 knots (282 km/h; 175 mph), comprising vertical and horizontal components of 108 knots (200 km/h; 124 mph) and 107 knots (198 km/h; 123 mph) respectively. The Airbus was destroyed on impact; all 228 passengers and crew on board were killed instantly by extreme trauma.
This post was edited on 10/29/18 at 8:49 am
Posted on 10/29/18 at 8:51 am to RogerTheShrubber
With Air France 447, ice crystals formed on the pitot tubes, blocking their ability to read air speed. In this case, the Lion Air plane had reported issues with malfunctioning pitot tubes, i.e. already-faulty equipment. So while the cause of the pitot tube failure between the two flights is most likely different, I’m curious to see if the pilots’ erronious reactions are the same.
This post was edited on 10/29/18 at 9:13 am
Posted on 10/29/18 at 8:57 am to When in Rome
quote:
pilot not made the critical error of continually moving the nose up, solidifying the stall.
I've heard of this occurring more than once when instrument readings were not accurate.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 9:14 am to When in Rome
quote:
With Air France 447, ice crystals formed on the pitot tubes, blocking their ability to read air speed. In this case, the Lion Air plane had reported issues with malfunctioning pitot tubes, i.e. already-faulty equipment
If this is the case, then shame on people on multiple levels. I'm not a pilot but my dad was and I've flown in the pilot/ nav seats before. Its just like a car, you can feel and see acceleration/ deceleration. Use your freaking brain. Also, would you not know where the thrust lever was in relation to how fast the plane should be going?
Also, do these planes not have a backup airspeed monitor like GPS or something?
Finally, what is SOP for a previous issue like this? Would it not be normal to pass it on to the next pilot that there was an possible mechanical issue so that they would know?
I could see the previous pilot being more experienced and dealing with the issues and then someone knew coming along the next morning and not being able to handle the malfunction. But again that's pilot failure and multiple failures from ground crew and admins.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 9:26 am to baldona
quote:
The altitude is irratic as hell. Has to be some sort of pilot error? Why would you continue to try and climb if there was an engine issue? They made multiple drops? I would think at some point way earlier on you stop trying to climb and simply gain enough speed to turn around to head back to the airport?
It seems like it was both plane malfunction and pilot error. This thing was frickin up before it even got to 1900 feet, and yeah I definitely don't understand why they then kept going with the climb
Posted on 10/29/18 at 9:48 am to Cold Drink
quote:
Korean Air, All Nippon, Cathay, Japan Air, Singapore Air, etc... are all orders of magnitude better than any American airliner.
The people downvoting you have never flown these airlines. I agree with you 100000000%
Posted on 10/29/18 at 9:53 am to idlewatcher
It's true. A lot of them haven't had fatalities in decades. Granted I don't know about on a per flight hour basis how they stack up with the large US airlines.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 9:53 am to baldona
quote:
Its just like a car, you can feel and see acceleration/ deceleration. Use your freaking brain.
Bro, I’m a commercial instrument helicopter pilot and I will tell you no you cannot rely on your proprioceptive system because that is how you will become spatially disoriented. Your vestibular system especially will produce erroneous results causing you to make inappropriate control inputs. That is why you must rely on your instruments. In this instance the instruments may have failed.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 9:57 am to Michael T. Tiger
They’re probably just filming the Bollywood version of lost
Posted on 10/29/18 at 10:53 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:yep, 3 months old.
Max 8. Newer plane. Strange for it to just drop out of the sky
Posted on 10/29/18 at 10:54 am to sloburn
quote:If you're going to troll, at least come up with your own material.
That Sir Isaac Newton was on to something
Hack
Posted on 10/29/18 at 10:57 am to barry
quote:
It's true. A lot of them haven't had fatalities in decades.
No lie, one Singapore Airlines trip I took out of IAH, we were taking off and the freaking engine was on fire. I yelled at the stewardess and she relayed to the captain to stop the plane. Taxi'ed back to the gate and left the next day.
Tripped me (and probably everyone else) out big time.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 10:57 am to OleWarSkuleAlum
quote:
Bro, I’m a commercial instrument helicopter pilot and I will tell you no you cannot rely on your proprioceptive system because that is how you will become spatially disoriented. Your vestibular system especially will produce erroneous results causing you to make inappropriate control inputs. That is why you must rely on your instruments. In this instance the instruments may have failed
I never said rely on. But it looks like they possibly stalled multiple times right?
At some point you have to say that some of instruments are not working correctly, that point is not the crash.
It seems like generally when a crash like this happens, the pilots can't get over the fact there is an instrument failure and ride their main instruments into the ground. Even when there are multiple back up warnings going off telling them they are having an instrument failure because things are not adding up.
This post was edited on 10/29/18 at 10:59 am
Posted on 10/29/18 at 10:57 am to baldona
quote:
The altitude is irratic as hell. Has to be some sort of pilot error? Why would you continue to try and climb if there was an engine issue?
Asian pilots are shitty. They’re better than they used to be though.
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