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Message
re: A biblical warning about our times
Posted on 2/10/22 at 9:19 am to Champagne
Posted on 2/10/22 at 9:19 am to Champagne
quote:
If you want to argue with Catholics, read the Catechism. It's all there, supported by Bible quotations and the writings of the men who were taught by the Apostles.
We have the Apostles words for ourselves to read, what more do we need?
I understand the Catholic position that the Bible, plus other writings of the church are all of the same weight. I just don’t believe this.
Why would God make salvation so complicated that we’d need scholars to explain it for us?
The Bible itself says the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth. And I believe this to be true if we seek him.
This post was edited on 2/10/22 at 9:20 am
1
Posted on 2/10/22 at 9:32 am to catholictigerfan
Be honest with me Catholic. Isn’t it true that according to Catholic teachings, no one can ever have assurance of salvation or assume he is going to heaven? And, if his soul ends up in Purgatory ( I don’t believe in this place) his/her family can never know how many prayers or masses must be offered to free their soul from that place.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 9:38 am to catholictigerfan
quote:
Faith is in fact necessary for salvation but God expects us to do good works, that is clear throughout the scriptures. If we don't do good works as Matthew 25 suggests we will be condemned even if we have saving grace.
I guess a way to think about it faith gets you into the club but our good works and God’s grace keeps us in.
I am late to this discussion but I would like to respectfully respond to this...
I get what you are saying about good works but I feel as though the way you are saying this is not consistent with the teaching of scripture related to both saving faith and good works. As I understand scriptures, saving faith and good works are inseparable over time but Good works are the product of Saving Faith. Hence the reason we find in the "James" the statement that Faith without works is dead. So, (again summarizing based upon my understanding...) a life that has been and is being transformed by Saving Grace through Faith will produce a life of good works. Therefore, if good works are absent from a life that claims to have received Saving Grace by Faith then its fair and reasonable to question their faith...
That would be (IMO..) are scripturally consistent way of saying what I think your point is...
Of course I may not understand your point after all...
Posted on 2/10/22 at 9:44 am to Revelator
quote:
I understand the Catholic position that the Bible, plus other writings of the church are all of the same weight. I just don’t believe this.
That's not what we believe, we believe that the scriptures are divinely inspired and nothing else has the weight of the scriptures. However, you must interpret the scriptures in light of Tradition (I capitalized it for a reason) and what the Church teaches.
I guess the best way to understand why we need a Church is think of it like a classroom. We study truth but we need someone more knowledgeable than us to guide us in coming to know the truth. The Church is like the professor in class. A professor is at service of what he is teaching just like the Church is at service to the scripture.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 9:48 am to Revelator
quote:
Be honest with me Catholic. Isn’t it true that according to Catholic teachings, no one can ever have assurance of salvation or assume he is going to heaven?
Correct.
A better way to understand it may be hope. We have hope that we will be saved, but we don’t believe that we are certain that we will be saved.
One is a theological virtue, the other is the sin of pressumption. Basically, I live my life as best I can with the hope that I will be saved, the other is I can do whatever I want because I know God will forgive me.
quote:
And, if his soul ends up in Purgatory ( I don’t believe in this place) his/her family can never know how many prayers or masses must be offered to free their soul from that place.
Purgatory is a place where we are purified after our deaths. He will not release you until you pay the last penny. We don't know what it takes for one to be released from purgatory or even avoid it all together.
I want to say that purgatory is like the Atlanta airport when you fly with Delta. But I don't think that analogy would work that well, lol.
This post was edited on 2/10/22 at 9:52 am
Posted on 2/10/22 at 9:49 am to catholictigerfan
The Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church explains all. If a person has a problem with a Catholic teaching and argues against it but has NOT gained familiarity with what the Catechism says about it, then that person argues and believes out of ABJECT IGNORANCE, is a fool, and, is to be ignored by any and all thinking persons. Period.
There is no point in arguing with an ignorant fool.
IMHO, here's the proper methodology for conversation: 1) become familiar with what the Catechism teaches; 2) identify an issue to discuss; 3) discuss the issue in light of what the Catechism teaches.
IMHO, there is no way any Catholic can have a meaningful conversation about their Faith UNLESS that Catholic is quite familiar with the Catechism.
There is no point in arguing with an ignorant fool.
IMHO, here's the proper methodology for conversation: 1) become familiar with what the Catechism teaches; 2) identify an issue to discuss; 3) discuss the issue in light of what the Catechism teaches.
IMHO, there is no way any Catholic can have a meaningful conversation about their Faith UNLESS that Catholic is quite familiar with the Catechism.
This post was edited on 2/10/22 at 9:55 am
Posted on 2/10/22 at 10:53 am to klrstix
quote:
As I understand scriptures, saving faith and good works are inseparable over time but Good works are the product of Saving Faith. Hence the reason we find in the "James" the statement that Faith without works is dead. So, (again summarizing based upon my understanding...) a life that has been and is being transformed by Saving Grace through Faith will produce a life of good works. Therefore, if good works are absent from a life that claims to have received Saving Grace by Faith then its fair and reasonable to question their faith...
Bingo
Posted on 2/10/22 at 10:56 am to catholictigerfan
quote:
Purgatory is a place where we are purified after our deaths. He will not release you until you pay the last penny. We don't know what it takes for one to be released from purgatory or even avoid it all together.
See this is ridiculous. We can’t pay anything to contribute to our salvation.
Jesus paid it all, all to him I owe.
Sin had left a crimson stain, he washed it white as snow.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 10:58 am to Champagne
quote:
IMHO, there is no way any Catholic can have a meaningful conversation about their Faith UNLESS that Catholic is quite familiar with the Catechism.
Yet 99% of Catholics who don’t even understand their own catechism swear they are going to heaven.
Which is ironic since this is the sin of presumption.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 11:04 am to catholictigerfan
quote:I won't continue the Matt. 25 discussion, but I'll just say as I have previously, that Matt. 25 isn't on an island, but lives within the grater context of the scriptures, and the Bible says elsewhere that it is God that saves and God that keeps us.
Faith is in fact necessary for salvation but God expects us to do good works, that is clear throughout the scriptures. If we don't do good works as Matthew 25 suggests we will be condemned even if we have saving grace.
I guess a way to think about it faith gets you into the club but our good works and God’s grace keeps us in.
What you are teaching is that justification is based not just on what Christ has done, but what we continue to do. Since we all sin, and sin deserves death, we all deserve death. If Christ's sacrifice is only sufficient to remove the stain of original sin, then He hasn't saved us at all, since we continue to sin and need to repent and then do good works to pay the debt of sin we have accumulated. That runs contrary to the purpose of what Jesus did on the cross: He paid the full debt that we owe by our sin.
quote:The reason I said that Catholics are semi-pelagians is because of the belief that humanity isn't "totally depraved", but only somewhat depraved, and therefore we have enough in us to cooperate with God without Him having to first regenerate us (make us "born again") and give us that faith and desire to follow Him. It speaks to our ability to cooperate with God on our own vs. God renewing us first and giving us the desire to follow Him. The focus is on man's ability vs. God's work in us.
We are not semi-pelagians even though you believe we are. I guess the best way to explain it is that God's grace is at play at all times in our works. We can't do good works without the grace of God. We are incapable of doing good works without the grace of God. However, we are still free to choose God or Evil even though we can't choose God without his help. Semi-pelagians say we don't need God's grace to do good works, we just need the spirit to be saved after that we don't need him.
Is the "natural man" able to please God (by works or otherwise)? The Bible teaches that the answer is "no", but only by faith can man please God, and faith is a gift of God that comes through the Spirit by regeneration.
quote:Unless I'm mistaken, you've talked about two different things. What is God's grace, in your view? Does God cause us to obey Him through good works? If not, what does this grace do? Is it simply knowledge that God has of what we will do? If so, that isn't God's grace at all; that's God's foreknowledge of actions at work in which God is entirely passive and we are the ones doing it all.
It is a problem that has no easy solution how does God give us the grace to do something but we have the freedom to reject it or accept it. You seem to say that if God gives us grace to do something we cannot reject it, this is where we seem to primarily disagree. Another way to look at it and how it is traditionally thought is how does God know our actions in the future but we somehow still have the freedom to choose those actions.
As an aside, this view of free will (God's foreknowledge of our choice) is entirely unscriptural as I see it. When Romans 30 is examined, the foreknowledge of God is not about our choices, but about us, those who are "called according to God's purpose" (v. 28). It is that biblical view of "knowing" as a relationship, not merely an intellectual understanding of something that will happen in the future.
quote:I apologize if I wasn't clear. I believe that we are free to sin but not to obey or please God prior to our regeneration, and then once we are regenerated, we are free to sin or not sin, but the remnants of our sinful nature continue to work within us, tempting us to sin and we often times give in.
Maybe I'm mistaken in what you said earlier but you seem to believe that we don't have the freedom once we are saved but that God's irrestiable grace makes it impossible for us to sin.
I believe that sanctification is the life-long process after we are regenerated by the Spirit to kill sin that lies within us and to conform us more and more to the image of Christ through obedience to the law. God's irresistible grace is the grace of regeneration through the Spirit that makes us not only able to receive the gift of faith in Christ, but compels us to do it, because it makes such a thing so sweet to us that we do not want to reject it. It's comparable to our sinful natures that we have prior to being regenerated and being indwelled by the Spirit that causes sin to be sweet to us and desire it more than God. It is irresistible because it changes our desires.
quote:I touched on this briefly before, but I'll just say that this view removes the sovereignty of God. The OT is full of examples of God saying that He raises up nations and brings them down; God creates calamity; God orchestrates and allows tests and punishments in the lives of His people (Job, for instance), and that it is God that gives people a heart of flesh instead of a heart of stone. God is anything but a passive agent in all that occurs, and He had planned and orchestrated the prophetic actions that resulted in the death of His son, whom He sent for the active purpose of saving His people.
I posit that God knows all possibilities and who will and will not reject his grace. So he gives grace to those who will freely accept it and not to those who will reject it. It's more complicated than that but that is how Man's freedom is held up with a God who is all knowing and powerful.
quote:Man's freedom has to be curtailed by God to one degree or another, otherwise man is sovereign and not God. If all that occurs is merely known by God, then it is not part of God's plan, and He isn't in control. There is no comfort in that for the Christian, who sees calamity befall him and cannot trust that it is really for his good (as if purposed by God).
A note about sovereignty I would argue that God's plan is to allow man's freedom and that allows him to keep sovereignty. Honestly, I need to read up more on this.
quote:If salvation is merely a response to what we do, then it is owed as a wage. Paul explicitly says that this is not the case, but that salvation is freely given precisely because we don't deserve it and have not earned it through our works. If faith is a gift from God, then God does not need to learn information about whether we will respond or not, because faith receives the promises and God has imparted that faith to His people. We will respond, so there is no need to see if we will or not.
I hold that in God all things are present to him in the same moment. Meaning he experiences our past present and future all as present. With that in mind, he sees how we act and respond to his call, and his grace. Taking that into consideration he chooses those who he will save and those he will condemn. We can't be saved without him, but he allows for our freedom.
quote:God chooses those according to His purpose (Rom. 9), not according to what they have done. That's the point of saying that Abraham was justified by faith prior to his works of obedience, or that Jacob was chosen as the heir of the promise and not Esau, though neither of them had done anything good or bad to earn it. When you examine the lives of both Jacob and Esau, it's hard not to think that God got that choice wrong, because Jacob was a complete scoundrel, in terms of looking only at works.
Simple question does God choose those who are saved based on our response to his grace, or does he choose those who are saved without that in mind?
God chooses us according to His will, not ours.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 11:07 am to FooManChoo
quote:
If Christ's sacrifice is only sufficient to remove the stain of original sin, then He hasn't saved us at all, since we continue to sin and need to repent and then do good works to pay the debt of sin we have accumulated. That runs contrary to the purpose of what Jesus did on the cross: He paid the full debt that we owe by our sin.
This
This post was edited on 2/10/22 at 11:11 am
Posted on 2/10/22 at 11:10 am to Champagne
quote:This is a pretty high standard you have set for those who are not Catholics. Should Protestants require Catholics to have read and gain familiarity with an adhered to Confession of Faith prior to discussing theology?
The Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church explains all. If a person has a problem with a Catholic teaching and argues against it but has NOT gained familiarity with what the Catechism says about it, then that person argues and believes out of ABJECT IGNORANCE, is a fool, and, is to be ignored by any and all thinking persons. Period.
There is no point in arguing with an ignorant fool.
IMHO, here's the proper methodology for conversation: 1) become familiar with what the Catechism teaches; 2) identify an issue to discuss; 3) discuss the issue in light of what the Catechism teaches.
IMHO, there is no way any Catholic can have a meaningful conversation about their Faith UNLESS that Catholic is quite familiar with the Catechism.
While I agree that it is helpful to be familiar with the viewpoints of those we are discussing such subjects with, that's not always possible. And even if it's possible, it may not always be practical.
We can have civil, productive conversations without being experts on every position our conversational opponent (so to speak) adheres to. It's also why asking questions is very important.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 11:30 am to Champagne
quote:
The Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church explains all. If a person has a problem with a Catholic teaching and argues against it but has NOT gained familiarity with what the Catechism says about it, then that person argues and believes out of ABJECT IGNORANCE
What kind of church creates a religion where only a small minority of its initiates understands its theology, and the vast majority of its members and those without the church are left in darkness?
Posted on 2/10/22 at 3:41 pm to Revelator
quote:
See this is ridiculous. We can’t pay anything to contribute to our salvation.
We don't pay to our salvation only a God-man could possibly pay the debt due to sin.
What the disagreement seems to be is about how do we obtain forgiveness from God.
You seem to suggest that when one is baptized he is forgiven forever even for future sins.
We teach that when we are baptized we are cleansed by the blood of the Lord flowing from the cross, and that completely cleanses us from sin, If I were to die seconds after being baptized I would go to heaven! However, man sins again and needs God's mercy. Therefore when you go to confession you are not sacrificing Christ again, or doing something on your own to receive forgiveness. It's just the same grace God gave you at Baptism, forgiveness, is given to you in confession. (Slightly more complicated but the same idea.) We are cleansed from our sin and again if we die right after going to confession we will go to heaven.
We both teach that the sacrifice of Christ paid for all sins past present and future. Where we disagree, is how we are forgiven of those sins. You believe it is a one time occurrence, by baptism. We argue that it is at first Baptism and then for sins we commit later in life the sacrament of confession.
God exists outside of time, he can apply the ransom of his son's death as many times as he wants. Our sacraments don't sacrifice Christ again but instead we participate in the one sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.
Why the need for purgatory? I think the best way to describe it is thinking of temporal punishment vs eternal punishment. Catholic's teach there are serious (mortal) sins and less serious (venial) sins. Deadly sins vs undeadly sins as St. John talks about.
Mortal sin deserves eternal punishment complete separation from God and Hell.
However non-deadly sin doesn't involve eternal punishment but temporal punishment. If one doesn't pay off temporal punishment in this life, he will need purification in purgatory. There is more to it but that should get you started on purgatory. Yes, the word purgatory isn't in the Bible but fire and purification are mentioned, while I'm sure we will disagree I believe that points to the purification after death. (1 Peter 1:7, 1 Corinthians 3:15)
Finally, God's grace forgives all sins. But as I said it matters how you receive that grace. But again you guys seem to have a problem with us cooperating with God's grace.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 3:43 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
You seem to suggest that when one is baptized he is forgiven forever even for future sins.
This is not what I believe. Baptism doesn’t save a person.
quote:
We argue that it is at first Baptism and then for sins we commit later in life the sacrament of confession.
Baptism never precedes salvation in the Bible.
quote:
God exists outside of time, he can apply the ransom of his son's death as many times as he wants. Our sacraments don't sacrifice Christ again but instead we participate in the one sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.
Hebrews 9:24
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvatIon
This post was edited on 2/10/22 at 4:14 pm
Posted on 2/10/22 at 3:43 pm to Revelator
quote:
Yet 99% of Catholics who don’t even understand their own catechism swear they are going to heaven.
Which is ironic since this is the sin of presumption.
Then those Catholics would be in error, but where did you get this 99% number? Is it your estimate or some poll that asks do you believe you are going to heaven.
I don't disagree many Catholics are very uninformed on what the Church teaches but that doesn't mean the Church isn't the one founded by Jesus Christ, just means we have failed in evangelization.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 3:44 pm to Revelator
quote:
This is not what I believe. Baptism doesn’t save a person.
Ok what saves a person?
Posted on 2/10/22 at 3:58 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
Ok what saves a person?
First a person is drawn by the Holy Spirit, made aware that he is a sinner, wholly inadequate to save himself from an impending doom. Then the sinner in an act of repentance acknowledges his sinfulness, and is offered the free gift of salvation, which was made by the sacrificial sinless death on the cross
by Jesus, who offered his blood as a ransom for our sins.
At this point we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, we become a new creation, and the Holy Spirit takes up permanent residence in our bodies.
From that point forward, he leads us into truth and guides us in matters both spiritual and practical, and helps us, through the word, to know the will of God for our lives.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 4:00 pm to Revelator
quote:
What kind of church creates a religion where only a small minority of its initiates understands its theology, and the vast majority of its members and those without the church are left in darkness?
When the entire theology of the Church is written out and extensively supported by footnotes that demonstrate the documented support for the theology, that certainly is not "left in darkness", now, is it? Are you living in some kind of Bizarro World in which Darkness is Light and Day is Night?
We are talking about your Eternal Soul here. Are you saying that people can't be expected to do some reading, some study, some meditation and some analysis on such an important subject?
You are ridiculous.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 4:04 pm to Champagne
quote:
are talking about your Eternal Soul here. Are you saying that people can't be expected to do some reading, some study, some meditation and some analysis on such an important subject?
Sure, in the Bible. A book written by men under the unction of the Holy Spirit.
I’m not interested in some creed of man.
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