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Message
re: Abortion as a political issue
Posted on 8/27/24 at 2:50 pm to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 8/27/24 at 2:50 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Apparently it is, considering the debate has been going on for literally decades now, with no end in sight.
If you don’t perform the abortion, what do you get approximately 9 months after conception? Real simple.
A is A
0
Posted on 8/27/24 at 2:58 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Your framing of the argument of abortion.
quote:
Or they just believe something differently than you.
Wrong. I'm not framing, I'm not changing the language.
When a human egg and human sperm meet - they create a human. Period. It's not a "maybe Human." It doesn't become a cucumber. It doesn't become possibly a monkey. It's a human life. It is already done. Scientifically - the process has started. That's logic.
To say that it isn't human because it doesn't have emotions, or doesn't speak, or walk, or can't live outside the womb is all grey area playing with the "idea" of human rather than the reality of "human." To try and find this mystical point where it isn't human to when it is human, is very much an illogical and emotion filled pursuit. Scientifically, it is a human. There is no debate, just an altered debate based on manufactured questions.
But that's what has happened to the argument and the perception on it. It's also why it actually is such a critical argument.
quote:
I think a chunk of Republicans will be happy and the Evangelicals will melt down to an insane degree
Disagree with the first, agree with the second point.
quote:
The media can only get around a position like that if the pol has shown not to be trusted on the issue, and it would take time. Eventually the media would have no play, because then they're pushing extremist DEM versions of abortion that the population rejects.
Wrong. Mostly because the media does this already. Doesn't matter how wrong they were about Trump's first term, they are going to continue to frame it as a failure and that he has basically already put gays in camps or some such thing.
It's funny that you mention the extreme views on abortion - that's the place where the media should at least equally question - and that might change the argument because you are right - most people would disagree. But how much airtime did proven body part selling at Planned Parenthood get? None. And taxpayers still fund them.
quote:
That's almost 50 years and shows times before the major DEM media takeover (which hurts your points above trying to remove agency from voters).
Dem media takeover is only part of the equation.
Posted on 8/27/24 at 3:01 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Apparently it is, considering the debate has been going on for literally decades now, with no end in sight.
Because one of our biggest flaws as humans is to want to escape from responsibility and we will do anything to achieve it.
It's a hard reality to grasp. We will twist our morals - in a variety of ways to "get our way."
Just because something is debated doesn't mean it isn't the truth.
Posted on 8/27/24 at 3:07 pm to burger bearcat
I think the Conservatives need to move WAY left on abortion...
I do, however, take issue with abortion in the 3rd Trimester.
I think a fair compromise would be to allow abortion up to the 100th Trimester...
TUSK: "No, your Honor, I didn't not kill that 25 year-old yoot breaking into my abode... I aborted him."
Judge: "Case dismissed."
I do, however, take issue with abortion in the 3rd Trimester.
I think a fair compromise would be to allow abortion up to the 100th Trimester...
TUSK: "No, your Honor, I didn't not kill that 25 year-old yoot breaking into my abode... I aborted him."
Judge: "Case dismissed."
Posted on 8/27/24 at 3:08 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
Wrong. I'm not framing,
quote:
When a human egg and human sperm meet - they create a human. Period. It's not a "maybe Human." It doesn't become a cucumber. It doesn't become possibly a monkey. It's a human life. It is already done. Scientifically - the process has started. That's logic.
To say that it isn't human because it doesn't have emotions, or doesn't speak, or walk, or can't live outside the womb is all grey area playing with the "idea" of human rather than the reality of "human." To try and find this mystical point where it isn't human to when it is human, is very much an illogical and emotion filled pursuit. Scientifically, it is a human. There is no debate
That is the definition of framing.
quote:
But how much airtime did proven body part selling at Planned Parenthood get? None.
That's a gotcha that isn't really directly related to the issue. It's an unrelated diversion from the subject of regulating abortion.
quote:
Dem media takeover is only part of the equation.
Whatever thing you were using to strip agency in addition to the media is also included in that timeline.
Posted on 8/27/24 at 3:09 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
Just because something is debated doesn't mean it isn't the truth.
Something debated by literally hundreds of millions of people over 50+ years does not really indicate truth has been found.
Posted on 8/27/24 at 3:13 pm to SlowFlowPro
Are the "conservatives" still arguing that they need to fight abortion?
Posted on 8/27/24 at 3:28 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Something debated by literally hundreds of millions of people over 50+ years does not really indicate truth has been found.
But notice you won't provide a straight answer to the question. When is a person a person? You won't and can't answer it, you will deflect and dodge and distract.
I give Bill Maher, of all people, credit for admitting what abortion is. He said it's murder, and he's OK with it. You and your ilk are too cowardly to join with Maher.
Posted on 8/27/24 at 3:33 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:It means truth has not been accepted.
quote:Just because something is debated doesn't mean it isn't the truth. Something debated by literally hundreds of millions of people over 50+ years does not really indicate truth has been found.
One side of the “debate” clearly articulates where it begins.
One cannot. That side simply doesn’t want the truth to be true. Cannot articulate why.
A is A
Posted on 8/27/24 at 3:47 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
That is the definition of framing.
Nope. It's the analysis of a scientific process. Not an emotion filled pursuit of "To be or not to be, that is the question." That's essentially what questioning "what is a human" is.
quote:
That's a gotcha that isn't really directly related to the issue. It's an unrelated diversion from the subject of regulating abortion.
It's an example of how the media allows dems to frame the argument no matter how much you believe people disagree with the extreme view of abortion.
Do you really think the 60-70% of agency removed individuals really understand what abortion is, what it entails, what it empowers, and what planned parenthood does?
Do you think that the every day person really gives time to think "Well in this moment, it's not a human, not a fetus, just some cells, but after this particular millisecond in it's growth cycle, it's totally cool to suction it out?"
Do you think we, as a culture, really think about what's going on there?
People do not want to face the hard truth of abortion, and the moral implications of it. And that's why they believe what they believe.
Even you, here's the question: is it completely logical - knowing what we know about say puberty that it occurs at different times in different people - that a 20 week abortion ban means we can kill the baby yesterday but can't today?
You think that's a scientific, well thought out position with evidence? At 11:59pm we can kill it, and at 12:00am we can't? That's defensible?
Posted on 8/27/24 at 3:57 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
You think that's a scientific, well thought out position with evidence? At 11:59pm we can kill it, and at 12:00am we can't? That's defensible?
Pro-abortion people will never admit to the objective truth of when life begins. They have to introduce their philosophical ideology because saying "We know we are killing (mostly minority) babies and we just don't care" is indefensible.
Posted on 8/27/24 at 4:47 pm to burger bearcat
quote:
But notice you won't provide a straight answer to the question. When is a person a person?
This thread is not a discussion of my personal beliefs about abortion and I won't let your attempts at diversion to take hold.
quote:
You won't and can't answer it,
I can, but I won't, for reasons stated above.
My personal opinion has nothing to do with this discussion.
Your personal opinion shouldn't, either, but you've made that choice.
Posted on 8/27/24 at 4:50 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
It's the analysis of a scientific process. Not an emotion filled pursuit of "To be or not to be, that is the question." That's essentially what questioning "what is a human" is.
Even scientifically, there is not a clear answer.
quote:
Do you really think the 60-70% of agency removed individuals really understand what abortion is, what it entails, what it empowers, and what planned parenthood does?
A major portion of them, yes.
Perhaps not in the framing you keep pushing, but that's just your views.
So if you're asking if those people understand the subject as strictly defined as your framing, then the answer is probably no.
quote:
You think that's a scientific, well thought out position with evidence? At 11:59pm we can kill it, and at 12:00am we can't? That's defensible?
For a government policy? Yes.
Even within science, there is a point before existence and then a point of existence. Remember, some religions believe birth control should be outlawed. Some believe the day after pill should be. There are many points that exist all along those timelines, where the moment after the point, the cells are now a human.
Posted on 8/27/24 at 5:49 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Something debated by literally hundreds of millions of people over 50+ years does not really indicate truth has been found.
Why does everyone entertain this mentally deranged person???? God blessed SLP with above average intelligence and he uses it to disrupt, distract, and confuse simple subjects, like abortion.
Killing innocent unborn babies is wrong. A fetus that unless ripped limb by limb from it's mother's womb is wrong. A fetus that under normal circumstances (99% of the time) will develop into a fully functional person.
SLP, what if your mother had aborted you???
Would you see this differently?
I know, dumb question...... You don't believe in Jesus, therefore are unable to comprehend my point.
Posted on 8/27/24 at 5:54 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:except there is. At the moment a sperm penetrates the egg wall it changes. It’s no longer possible for another sperm to penetrate the wall and fertilize the egg, because it’s no longer just an egg. From the moment of fertilization it’s genetic makeup is complete, again well known and established scientific fact.
Even scientifically, there is not a clear answer.
You have a number of people saying “that’s not it, but they also can’t tell you what is”. They cannot prove it isn’t, and it’s easily proven it is.
quote:Neither they, or you seem capable of understanding it. It’s extremely simple. People for some strange reason don’t like simple.
So if you're asking if those people understand the subject
A is A
Posted on 8/27/24 at 6:40 pm to lake chuck fan
quote:
It's an obvious political issue, but at the state level. Anytime Trump is asked about it, he should simply reply that abortion is and always was a state issue based on The Constitution, which is still the supreme law of the land.
State level politics can still sink national candidates
Posted on 8/27/24 at 6:44 pm to llfshoals
quote:
Neither they, or you seem capable of understanding it.
Not giving into your framing is not being incapable of understanding it.
The fact that you can only see within your framing, however, does indicate your ability to see outside of that framing objectively may be difficult (if not impossible).
Posted on 8/27/24 at 7:23 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:That’s because I’m discussing a fact, and you’re dancing around failing to disprove that fact.
The fact that you can only see within your framing, however, does indicate your ability to see outside of that framing objectively may be difficult (if not impossible).
quote:
Not giving into your framing is not being incapable of understanding it.
You don’t like that it’s fact you can’t disprove, we get it. All you have is “I think reality should change because I want it so badly”
So rather than challenge the fact, which you can’t, you’re trying to argue we have to accept that somehow reality is unimportant.
A is A. That hasn’t changed, and it’s not going to.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 6:13 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
I can, but I won't, for reasons stated above.
My personal opinion has nothing to do with this discussion.
Your personal opinion shouldn't, either, but you've made that choice.
Here's the reason it matters.
You want to compare an issue like abortion to something more benign like tax policy. Maybe someone wants the marginal tax rate to be so high and the other side wants it alot lower, well let's compromise and meet in the middle. That's politics.
With abortion, the biggest problem with the debate is each side is talking apples and bowling balls. They aren't even in the same galaxy as eachother, so any discussion about the topic, even in the political nature I presented in the OP, becomes impossible to overcome.
For example, if we were talking about systemically killing or genociding a certain group of people, or maybe out right human sacrificing them (grown adults or children), I highly doubt you would suggest Republicans need to just give up on the issue, "it's a loser".
It's important to understand, while you don't agree with the view of pro-lifers, that abortion is indeed a human being murdered, that is how we view it. And if you view it as a clump of cells being discarded, it's hard to even have any discussions on any level beyond that.
This post was edited on 8/28/24 at 6:15 am
Posted on 8/28/24 at 6:22 am to burger bearcat
It’s a pretty simple issue. We shouldn’t kill our children. I know there are times it might be necessary if mother’s life would be in jeopardy. But it should still feel like what it is. A necessary evil. I’ also understand a carve out for rape. But we should all feel the heavy weight of guilt for killing a child.
Not much area to compromise on that.
Not much area to compromise on that.
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