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re: Dispensationalism is a Heresy
Posted on 8/19/25 at 6:57 am to Champagne
Posted on 8/19/25 at 6:57 am to Champagne
quote:That level of spiritual support for Israel is not a Protestant distinctive, but a dispensationalist distinctive.
I'm convinced that the USA is a Protestant country and it will do Protestant things such as providing complete, unquestioning and unconditional support for the State of Israel,
Protestantism is varied on the views of Israel within eschatology. Amillennialism and Postmillennialism—the two historical covenantal views espoused by Protestants prior to Darby in the 1800s and being still held by non-dispensational Protestants today—both see a unified way that God has worked to save His people in history. The OT nation of Israel was typological of the NT Church, and now the one people of God has expanded to include Gentiles.
Postmils and certain Amils may see a special place for Jews coming to faith in large numbers before Christ’s second coming, but that’s by a conversion to Christianity, not a return to OT types and shadows.
As a Reformed Protestant, I believe there is only one way of salvation, and the Jews by and large reject that way today. I would rejoice to see many ethnic Jews come to a saving faith in Jesus Christ, but I would rejoice of any people group were to be saved, as well.
At this time, I see the nation of Israel as no different spiritually than the predominantly Muslim Palestinian state. Both reject Christ as Lord and Messiah and need to repent and trust in Christ for their salvation.
2
Posted on 8/19/25 at 7:12 am to SkiUtah420
Posted on 8/19/25 at 7:17 am to SkiUtah420
Jews aren't going to heaven unless they believe in Jesus Christ for everlasting life just like the Gentiles. There is no separate deal for them apart from Jesus Christ. Call it whatever you want.
Romans 11 talks about Israel being blinded temporarily until the fullness of the Gentiles.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:
“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”
Their rejection of Jesus opened the door to the Gentiles to believe.
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
But in the end they will have the veil removed and they will recognize Jesus as their Messiah.
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,
Romans 11 talks about Israel being blinded temporarily until the fullness of the Gentiles.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:
“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”
Their rejection of Jesus opened the door to the Gentiles to believe.
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
But in the end they will have the veil removed and they will recognize Jesus as their Messiah.
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,
Posted on 8/19/25 at 7:24 am to Champagne
quote:But, but, but this shouldn't be on the poli board!
Champagne
Posted on 8/19/25 at 8:04 am to Canon951
quote:
Romans 11 talks about Israel being blinded temporarily until the fullness of the Gentiles. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written: “God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.” Their rejection of Jesus opened the door to the Gentiles to believe.
This is correct. Most dispensationalist believe this and also a pre-trib rapture. Some dispensationalist also believe that Gentiles may get the same treatment in the Tribulation period that Israel has had the past 2000ish years. That they are blinded of the truth in that period because after the rapture in the Book of Revelation, God only appears to be dealing with the Jewish people. I guess a last chance scenario.
Posted on 8/19/25 at 8:10 am to Prodigal Son
quote:
Guess that settles it.
It was settled long before that. Dispensationalism is akin to Mormanism. There were no early Christians who believed that nonsense
Posted on 8/19/25 at 8:31 am to scottydoesntknow
This is absolutely incorrect. Almost all early church fathers believed in dispensations. It amazes me that Catholics can’t stand dispensationalist.
We follow the Bible, Catholics follow traditions and a man in a dress.
Every other denomination that misses the true biblical division as much as Catholics is called a cult. Not sure why Protestants give them a pass. They are no different then mormans, 7th day, Kingdom Hall etc. All Christian cults believe the Bible plus something else. Catholics are exactly the same.
We follow the Bible, Catholics follow traditions and a man in a dress.
Every other denomination that misses the true biblical division as much as Catholics is called a cult. Not sure why Protestants give them a pass. They are no different then mormans, 7th day, Kingdom Hall etc. All Christian cults believe the Bible plus something else. Catholics are exactly the same.
Posted on 8/19/25 at 8:33 am to Penrod
quote:
Bunch of horse shite. I can’t believe folks fall for this.
Indeed. We can bash it all we want, but, unfortunately you and I are outnumbered on this issue - the USA is a Protestant country and most Protestants believe exactly what he says. They believe that God chose Israel to be the head of all nations for all time - including the USA. They believe that the USA is less important than Israel.
It is very dangerous for a country to believe that it exists to support another country because they think the Bible says so.
Posted on 8/19/25 at 8:35 am to Monahans
quote:
Satan plays his tricks. All Christians need to read the Bible again. Christ is the only way.
Correct. And he’s not in boiling excrement in Hell. It’s mind boggling with the ability to obtain data in 2025 the OG mass formation psychosis still has the pull they do.
Posted on 8/19/25 at 8:41 am to Goforit
quote:horseshite. The Church is the new Israel, not Netanyahu and Mossad. They're a satanic death cult and their people are at the forefront of pushing filth on to our nation. They reject the Christ and will receive appropriate ramifications for doing so. This is a +/- 150 year old belief that you spew forth, it's heresy and it plays a major part in the shite show that we find ourselves in.
If you don't think Israel is important in the rule of the kingdoms of the earth you are stupid. God chose Israel to be the head of all nations. God said He would bless those who bless Israel and He would curse those who curse Israel. He was speaking about individuals and nations. If you don't understand this you will not only be on the wrong side of history but more importantly on the wrong side of God. These truths were held long before there were Dispensationalists.
quote:Need an "early life" check on this guy.
Goforit
Posted on 8/19/25 at 8:44 am to mudshuvl05
quote:
The Church is the new Israel
Wrong.
Posted on 8/19/25 at 8:44 am to CorchJay
quote:
This is absolutely incorrect. Almost all early church fathers believed in dispensations. It amazes me that Catholics can’t stand dispensationalist.
No one disputes that there were different time periods in which God interacted differently with humanity. Obviously there was pre-Jesus times and post Jesus times.
What is false is the idea that scripture somehow suggests that in todays age those with Jewish ancestry and/or the modern country Israel are still the inheritors of God's covenant with Abraham and Christians are some kind of exception. That has led to the idea that those who support the current nation state of Israel are blessed(hasnt panned out that way).
Christians are God's chosen people, period.
Posted on 8/19/25 at 8:47 am to Diamondawg
quote:
But, but, but this shouldn't be on the poli board!
Perhaps you are correct on this.
But we have a large segment of our own countrymen who believe that the USA is subservient to Israel, and that the USA may never try to change Israeli actions towards something that the USA would consider better, all because they believe that the Bible says so, then, we are dealing with a huge sub-section of US citizens who are relying on the Book of Genesis in order to inform the US Govt with regard to US Mid East foreign policy.
US citizens should analyze and consider whether we want our country's Mid East foreign policy to be constrained and controlled by the Book of Genesis. This is a proper topic for PT - Should a major sub-sector of American Protestant Christianity, who believes that the Book of Genesis should control US Mid East foreign policy, be the group that dictates the platform of US Mid East foreign policy?
I'm being consistent here - No Religion on the PT board and No Religion when implementing US Mid East foreign policy.
Posted on 8/19/25 at 8:50 am to Champagne
I'm just grateful the new covenant was realized in, by and through Jesus and imputed to us....don't believe we would have ever gotten it right.
Posted on 8/19/25 at 8:54 am to CorchJay
quote:
quote:The Church is the new Israel Wrong.
Galatians 3:7-9, 29: “Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, ‘In you shall all the nations be blessed.’ So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith… And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.”
Galatians 6:16: “And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.”
Romans 9:6-8: “But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring… It is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.”
1 Peter 2:9-10: “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.”
Romans 11:17-18: “But if some of the branches were broken off, and you [Gentiles], although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches.”
Hebrews 8:6-13 (quoting Jeremiah 31:31-34): “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah… For he finds fault with them when he says… I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts… For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more. In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete.”
Posted on 8/19/25 at 8:57 am to scottydoesntknow
quote:
Christians are God's chosen people, period.
So God can lie now? God made a covenant forever with Israel the nation and the people. It did not make a covenant with the government. You can support the nation and the Jewish people and be indifferent to the political part of Israel. Some do believe as Cruz does and that’s ok nothing in the Bible says we shouldn’t believe like he does. It’s clearly in the Bible. I love the fulfillment of prophecy in the Jewish people returning to the promise land but it has nothing to do with my personal salvation. It completely applies to a dispensational view. So as a dispensationalists it continues to show God’s word is true forever.
Posted on 8/19/25 at 8:58 am to FooManChoo
Foo, you and I agree on this particular issue, and I hope that your fellow Protestants listen to you on this issue. You have your work cut out for you, because it seems clear to me that you are out numbered and most of your fellow Protestants believe that the Holy Bible and Almighty God Commands us that the current State of Israel, founded in 1948, is the exact entity referred to in the Book of Genesis, and that the State of Isreal is the head of all nations today, including head of the USA. And as a logical result of this foreign policy doctrine - the USA must always help Israel accomplish whatever Israel wants to accomplish with no questioning or objections whatsoever, because, Why would you question or object to God Himself?
As I have said many times around here, I don't like to mix Politics and Religion together when talking about foreign policy and domestic policy, but, this is exactly what so many of your Protestant brothers have done - they have taken their personal interpretation of the Book of Genesis (which you disagree with) and they demand that the USA's Mid East foreign policy be controlled by what THEY say that the Book of Genesis says.
It's crazy, but, here we are.
As I have said many times around here, I don't like to mix Politics and Religion together when talking about foreign policy and domestic policy, but, this is exactly what so many of your Protestant brothers have done - they have taken their personal interpretation of the Book of Genesis (which you disagree with) and they demand that the USA's Mid East foreign policy be controlled by what THEY say that the Book of Genesis says.
It's crazy, but, here we are.
Posted on 8/19/25 at 8:59 am to scottydoesntknow
You are correct we are grafted into God’s chosen people we did not replace them.
Posted on 8/19/25 at 9:02 am to Goforit
quote:
God said He would bless those who bless Israel and He would curse those who curse Israel.
Interesting. Jesus said to judge a tree by its fruits. Since the creation of the state of Israel weve been in several unfruitfal wars, birth rates have gone down, marriage rates have gone down, violence up, our architecture and beauty of our cities fell off map, we are 37 trillion dollars in debt, degeneracy has run rampant and only increased every year. The % of believers shrank, Islam exploded. Western counties are having their populations replaced by muslims, atheism rose significantly.
Posted on 8/19/25 at 9:03 am to Champagne
quote:
I'm convinced that the USA is a Protestant country and it will do Protestant things such as providing complete, unquestioning and unconditional support for the State of Israel, because so many US politicians agree with Ted Cruz.
Those are post WWII Protestants. Post WWII Protestants are MUCH different than pre-WWII Protestants and the Protestant traditions our founders followed.
In general the Protestantism our founders practiced was more conservative than Catholics. The Protestantism of today is more liberal than Catholics.
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