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Posted on 1/23/21 at 3:12 pm to Cfrobel
quote:
The real reason is the UK cannot stand the idea of a continental power becoming too strong. They nearly drove their economy to ruin financing coalition after coalition to defeat Napoleon and made a deal with the devil to defeat Hitler.
The idea that in 1941 anyone in the west cared about the plight of the Jews in Eastern Europe is laughable.
True.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 3:29 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Weird how we let China do this today.
They aren't brown enough to kill, I guess
Posted on 1/23/21 at 3:31 pm to Mo Jeaux
quote:hindsight
. You said that anyone who said we shouldn't have been fighting Nazi Germany was a sick frick. I was just trying to pin down why.
There were legit arguments in the 30's to not go to war
I am saying if someone says we should not have done it now. . .they are ok with the holocaust, and the fact that the Soviets would have marched across Europe
This post was edited on 1/23/21 at 3:33 pm
Posted on 1/23/21 at 3:51 pm to JawjaTigah
I Just put the link in the OP 
Posted on 1/23/21 at 4:21 pm to GardenDistrictTiger
We should ask the Poles, Czechs, Ukrainians, East Germans and others who had to live under both.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 4:22 pm to GardenDistrictTiger
Soviets. Pure evil.
Hell, Austria welcomed Hitler with open arms.
Hell, Austria welcomed Hitler with open arms.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 4:37 pm to Switzerland
quote:
We should ask the Poles, Czechs, Ukrainians, East Germans and others who had to live under both.
The Poles - the Soviets. And it’s not even close. They were terrified of them.
Ukrainians - it depends. Western Ukraine happily fought for the Nazis. Especially the Galacians. Eastern Ukraine fought for the Soviets.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 4:42 pm to saintsfan92612
quote:
do we have a holocaust denier in our midst?
But about the Red Army... they were not the best army in the world in 1941...far from it.
They were the biggest. But in terms of elite troops, there were very few.
Stalin purged damn near every officer in their army before their attack on Finland...which I must remind you...the Soviets struggled heavily to take just a few cities in Finland.
Then after that failure, Stalin had even more officers fired or killed. The army was an absolute mess which is why Hitler was so confident that he would win and why he attacked when he did.
If not for a few tactical errors in not encircling Moscow and Stalingrad a little faster, they could have potentially knocked Russia out before winter.
I have no idea what any of that has to do with the fact 6 million jews were not killed as we are told
Posted on 1/23/21 at 4:42 pm to Penrod
quote:
Then why couldn’t they defend themselves against Hitler? And why did they need all the supplies from the USA? If it wasn’t for the horrible winter, and the scorched earth retreat, the Germans would have easily conquered that “largest and best equipped” army.
I guess you didn’t read anything I posted. Hitler caught them by tactical surprise with their army forward deployed. You can call it bad deployment or you could easily theorize and some have that the Soviet’s were ready to launch an attack themselves and Hitler wrong footed them. Once the Germans broke through the forward deployed army, there was nothing but vast open spaces in front of them.
And no, the winter didn’t beat the Germans, Zhukov’s fresh Siberian divisions equipped with T-34s did. As for the American supplies, they were useful.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 4:44 pm to Cfrobel
quote:
The real reason is the UK cannot stand the idea of a continental power becoming too strong. They nearly drove their economy to ruin financing coalition after coalition to defeat Napoleon and made a deal with the devil to defeat Hitler.
The idea that in 1941 anyone in the west cared about the plight of the Jews in Eastern Europe is laughable.
It was traditional British foreign policy.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 4:45 pm to Cossatotjoe
ww2 was an elite treasure hunt and intentional destruction of infrastructure that lends to the theory of a previous civilization building much of our current architecture.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 4:52 pm to Cossatotjoe
quote:
As for the American supplies, they were useful.
Useful?
The Soviets lose the war without lend lease.
Khrushchev said it himself.
Steel, aluminum, copper. Gunpowder.
Basic foodstuffs. Canned rations.
Boots, clothing.
Trains, trucks, motorcycles.
Tanks and aircraft.
We kept the Soviet Union fed, we kept their industry supplied with the raw materials they needed to operate, but above all else, we provided their supply train. The rolling stock, and the more than 400,00 vehicles we sent, changed the war on the Eastern Front.
Hell, the man who first explained it to me was an ex Soviet official.
This post was edited on 1/23/21 at 4:54 pm
Posted on 1/23/21 at 5:02 pm to Cossatotjoe
Yep. OKH had no plan B for when the USSR didn't collapse at the border and actually turned out to be growing in strength at Smolensk.
This post was edited on 1/23/21 at 5:03 pm
Posted on 1/23/21 at 5:02 pm to Lima Whiskey
quote:
Useful?
The Soviets lose the war without lend lease.
Khrushchev said it himself.
Steel, aluminum, copper. Gunpowder.
Basic foodstuffs. Canned rations.
Boots, clothing.
Trains, trucks, motorcycles.
Tanks and aircraft.
We kept the Soviet Union fed, we kept their industry supplied with the raw materials they needed to operate, but above all else, we provided their supply train. The rolling stock, and the more than 400,00 vehicles we sent, changed the war on the Eastern Front.
Hell, the man who first explained it to me was an ex Soviet official.
The war was lost in December 1941 before any significant US supplies made it to Russia.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 8:55 pm to Cossatotjoe
quote:
The war was lost in December 1941 before any significant US supplies made it to Russia.
The Soviets don't agree with you.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 11:32 pm to Cossatotjoe
quote:The Germans could have won a war of attrition at this point.
The war was lost in December 1941 before any significant US supplies made it to Russia.
Easily.
General Winter saved Moscow, but the Soviet troops were damn near out of oil, bullets and (most importantly) food.
Had the US not arrived to press the war, Germans may have lost. . .but the loss would have been a cease fire/draw down loss. Most Likely ending with Germany holding all seized and annexed lands.
Posted on 1/24/21 at 9:38 am to Cossatotjoe
quote:
The war was lost in December 1941 before any significant US supplies made it to Russia.
I’m sorry but this simply isn’t true. Yes, Operation Typhoon failed to take Moscow and the subsequent Soviet counteroffensive came close to cracking the lines of Army Group Center. But the Soviet counteroffensive petered out and by Spring of 42 the front had stabilized. On the German side divisions that had been depleted in 41 had been more or less been brought back to combat effective strength.
In short, Germany at that point in the Spring of 42 had the capability to vigorously prosecute the war for years to come. However the situation for the Soviets in the Spring of 42 was far more bleak from a logistics standpoint. The Red Army had lost most of what little motor transport it had. Most of Ukraine, which was responsible for most of Soviet food production was in German hands. The Soviets had plenty of crude oil but lacked the refining capacity to come close to meeting the requirements of either Red Army ground or air forces. And even if they could produce fuel the Soviets could not produce tires for the trucks they didn’t have to transport the food they didn’t have to the army at the front. Without American material help the Soviets would have collapsed by perhaps as early as late 1942 or early 1943.
Posted on 1/25/21 at 7:22 am to Roaad
quote:
I think of the words of Jordan Peterson.
"Well the guys doing it (Mao, Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin). . .I mean THEY said they were doing communism. They all believed in communism. They all had unchallengable absolute power to establish communism.
The real lesson is that any leftist program involves transferring power from individuals to government. And when government gets enough power despots will come to rule it, and then we will have despotism. They also come to rule more limited governments, but they can't become tyrants because the government isn't powerful enough.
Take Trump as an example. Whether you like him or hate him it's obvious that if Trump had the power he would still be President, and then he would remain President for life. Our federal government still is not strong enough for that, but it's constantly being moved that way. Eventually a would-be despot is going to become President, win reelection, and after eight years, "discover" a national emergency that requires him to flout the 22nd amendment and stay in power. That will be the end of our democracy, and it will occur because government was given too much power.
Posted on 1/25/21 at 7:25 am to GardenDistrictTiger
quote:
Greater Evil, Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia
Dem America
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