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re: If Confederate generals were traitors, so was George Washington
Posted on 7/24/20 at 9:59 pm to RollTide1987
Posted on 7/24/20 at 9:59 pm to RollTide1987
Anyone that calls Confederates traitors is simply using feelings instead of logic and facts. The documents of the founding fathers clearly show that states were sovereign entities that voluntarily joined the union and had the power to withdraw. The Constitution did not give the federal government the power to force states to remain either. It is cut and dry for anyone not driven by emotions.
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Posted on 7/24/20 at 10:07 pm to riverparish
quote:
That is literally what many American Indian tribes did.
Google the word traitor.
It would not describe the people you’re stealing land from.
Posted on 7/24/20 at 10:55 pm to SammyTiger
I’m using your quote. I did not add or take away from it.
Also, a couple of questions you did not answer...
Maybe you should google the word “racist”
Or do they get a pass cause their land was stolen?
Also, a couple of questions you did not answer...
quote:
How is what I said racist?
Maybe you should google the word “racist”
quote:
But what about just the Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Seminole, Catawba, and Creek? Those tribes actually sided and fought with the confederacy. Should their statues be torn down?
Or do they get a pass cause their land was stolen?
Posted on 7/24/20 at 11:03 pm to NfamousPanda
quote:
One fought to liberate themselves from tyranny, the others fought to have the right to own other humans as property. Small difference there.
That would be the victors narrative, fortunately for them they get to write history.
Had England prevailed and later the South seceded the story would be a bit different, Old George Washington would have been hung and remembered as a traitor while the CSA would have stood up to tyranny.
Funny how that works aint it.
Posted on 7/24/20 at 11:06 pm to riverparish
quote:
I’m using your quote. I did not add or take away from it.
Your also ignoring who I am talking about.
Washington started out as an Englishmen and fought a war against England. Robert E Lee started as US Citizen and fought a war against the US
Native American stared as Native American (some)]fought a war against thenUS and mostly ended dead.
quote:
Maybe you should google the word “racist”
Either your a contrarian or you actually believe the CSA is comparable to native Americans.
Either way, you’re a at least a dick.
quote:
Or do they get a pass cause their land was stolen?
Any statue of Native American confederates should be torn Down.
Please list them.
Posted on 7/24/20 at 11:10 pm to RollTide1987
Anyone who's seen the historical docu- film "The Patriots" starring the great Mel Gibson already knows these facts
This post was edited on 7/24/20 at 11:12 pm
Posted on 7/24/20 at 11:23 pm to NfamousPanda
quote:
re: If Confederate generals were traitors, so was George WashingtonPosted on 7/24/20 at 10:37 am to RollTide1987
One fought to liberate themselves from tyranny, the others fought to have the right to own other humans as property. Small difference there.
I will never understand the simple mindedness of statements like this. Abe Lincoln said that the war was not about freeing the slaves. The North had five slave states. The North failed to pass the 13th Amendment in 1864, even without any Southern reps in the Congress. And the South had no interest in destroying the North. It simply wanted independence. To call it a Civil War is absurd. There was never a goal of conquering the North and imposing a new regime.
The notion that the slavery focus of certain oligarchs meant the avg Southerner was fighting to keep slaves rather than independence is the real revisionist history.
Posted on 7/24/20 at 11:23 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
If Confederate generals were traitors, so was George Washington
BLM and ANTIFA are traitors by the same definition.
Posted on 7/24/20 at 11:31 pm to offshoretrash
Both BLM and ANTIFA truly are traitors for they want to violently overhrow the duly elected president. Silicone Valley is the same cause they want to use speech codes to quash support for Trump. True election interference that would make Putin blush.
This post was edited on 7/24/20 at 11:32 pm
Posted on 7/24/20 at 11:33 pm to RollTide1987
The colonials rebelled for a decent reason, the Southern Democrats seceded because they lost an election (which was their fault, since they wouldn't compromise with northern counterparts)
Posted on 7/24/20 at 11:50 pm to SammyTiger
quote:
Your also ignoring who I am talking about.
No I’m not. I’m literally using your words. They fought against the US and then became part of the US. By your quote, you called them traitors, not me.
quote:
Native American stared as Native American (some)]fought a war against thenUS and mostly ended dead.
True. They did not start off as citizens but became a part of the US. Again, look at your own quote. And while most ended up dead, there are still memorials all over this country for Indians and tribes that fought against the US. If it bothers you to see statues of people that fought against the US soldier, then those should bother you as well. If not, that’s hypocritical.
quote:
Either way, you’re a at least a dick
More name calling. Nice. Don’t be upset with me, they’re your words that I’m asking about
quote:
Please list them.
I already listed 6 tribes that fought with the confederacy and against the US. By your own argument, since those tribes fought for the confederacy (and some of those tribes owned slaves), all memorials of them should be taken down
This post was edited on 7/24/20 at 11:52 pm
Posted on 7/25/20 at 12:28 am to riverparish
quote:
No I’m not. I’m literally using your words. They fought against the US and then became part of the US. By your quote, you called them traitors, not me.
Again, my quote had a specific context and used specific examples that are easily differentiates from native Americans.
I didn’t write a definitive definition you’re just trying to pretend like the CSA was not a bunch of Americans deciding to betray their country.
quote:
If it bothers you to see statues of people that fought against the US soldier, then those should bother you as well. If not, that’s hypocritical.
Not really the only thing that bothers me about them. Just one of the things.
quote:
More name calling. Nice. Don’t be upset with me, they’re your words that I’m asking about
You can both ask about my words and be a dick.
quote:
I already listed 6 tribes that fought with the confederacy and against the US. By your own argument, since those tribes fought for the confederacy (and some of those tribes owned slaves), all memorials of them should be taken down
Here is where you lose Your own hullahit
Logic.
I am Not saying all southerners should have their statues torn down.
In fact I am Defending George Washington who was a southern slave owner.
So if there are any statues dedicated to confederate Native American, read them down.
Please list them.
Posted on 7/25/20 at 3:18 am to SammyTiger
quote:
used specific examples that are easily differentiates from native Americans.
Where are these examples? Here is your entire quote...”If there are some pretty big differences. Mainly Washington won. When you fight a war against England and end up not as an English colony but the United States, you’re a patriot. When you fight a war against The US and end up a part of the US, you’re a traitor:”
I dont see any examples that would differentiate from what the Indian did. I’m sorry you didn’t think about the Native American when you typed that out. I bet you used to say “losers don’t get trophies” too until someone pointed out Vietnam.
quote:
you’re just trying to pretend like the CSA was not a bunch of Americans deciding to betray their country.
They weren’t. I mean, sure some probably were but you can’t look at the past with modern eyes. Back then you had more loyalty to your state and to a lesser extent region than you did the country. Robert E Lee said that if Virginia stayed with union then so would he but that if she seceded then he cannot raise his sword against his birthplace and home (I’m paraphrasing). You even see that loyalty to region today when fans get excited when players chant “SEC,SEC” even if their team isn’t playing.
quote:
Not really the only thing that bothers me about them. Just one of the things.
So are you moving the goal posts per se or are you just a hypocrite? I’m guessing a little bit of both.
quote:
You can both ask about my words and be a dick
If questioning your asinine statements makes me a dick, then I’m ok with that.
quote:
Please list them
Real quick there’s a bust statue of Allen Wright (Choctaw tribe) in Anadarko, Ok. Do you want me to go through other tribes that fought against the US and are traitors by your definition. I mean, I guess we need to tear down Crazy Horse monument.
Posted on 7/25/20 at 4:03 am to SammyTiger
quote:Nor outside of 21st century revisionism, would the word traitor describe confederates. Radical Republicans following Lincoln's assassination were itching to prosecute and execute prominent southerners.
Google the word traitor.
It would not describe the people you’re stealing land from.
Jeff Davis was itching for exoneration via the same process. Had he gotten it, instead of being branded a traitor, it would have validated legality of secession, and perhaps highlighted illegality of northern actions.
A trial never occurred. The risk of attempting to brand Jeff Davis a traitor was too high to undertake even by postwar radicals. For a revisionist to now attempt making the case 155yrs after the fact is weak.
Posted on 7/25/20 at 4:41 am to tigerfan88
quote:
It’s only treason if you lose.
Posted on 7/25/20 at 4:49 am to NfamousPanda
quote:
One fought to liberate themselves from tyranny, the others fought to have the right to own other humans as property. Small difference there.
Not correct.
That would be the same as saying we fought WWII to free the jews from concentration camps.
Now /\ that /\ was a great benefit of our defeating NAZI Germany, but it was certainly not the reason we fought the war. The Civil War was fought to "preserve the union" <== and the union at that time allowed slavery to exist where states wanted it to exist. The political debate was over not allowing new states to make their own decision about slavery.
!!! NOW THIS IS NOT A DEFENSE OF SLAVERY - THIS IS MERELY MY ATTEMPT TO DISCUSS THE SITUATION AT THE TIME OF THE EVENTS RELATIVE TO THE ALLEGATION OF "TREASON." !!!!
Before the war actually began, Lincoln stated that
- If he could save the union by freeing none of the slaves, he would do that.
- If he could save the union by freeing all of the slaves, he would do that,
- If he could save the union by freeing some of the slaves and allow the others to remain in slavery he would do that.
There was not a single union soldier that I have ever heard of who eagerly joined the Union forces to 'free the slaves." They patriotically fought for their states who wanted to 'preserve the union.'
Now the underlying motive for 'preserving the union" was ECONOMIC - the northern states did not want to lose the cheap cotton the south provided - PERIOD.
Secession itself was NOT considered "treason" at the time - The Constitution would not have been ratified in the first place had there been a provision that the states could not dissolve their ties to the new federal government. Secession had been discussed by many of the New England states prior to the Civil War.
The war was initiated because South Carolina tried to prevent the Union from maintaining a military presence in THEIR new nation. Lincoln did that deliberately so the "south" could be accused of "starting the war" -->and it worked.
Lincoln got the war he wanted = "to preserve the Union" = but he was losing badly and needed an added tactic to give the new union conscripts a "cause" to fight for. The Emancipation Proclamation" was just that - a TACTIC - regardless of how noble the cause was, it was NOT a reason for the war. It was merely a tactic to help the union to not LOSE the war that was already underway.
!!! A NOBLE CONCEPT INDEED - but just not the REASON for the war = and there was NO ACCUSATIONS of TREASON either before, during, or immediately AFTER the Civil War.
TREASON is just another pejorative the invented by modern lawless, clueless, arrogantly ignorant, worthless products of a marxist upbringing who realize that "racist!!' has actually become a 'ho-hum' allegation. (when everybody is a racist, then nobody is a racist)
You idiots might note that NOT ONE Confederate soldier was even accused of "treason" in the immediate aftermath of the war (nor for 150 years afterwards - it was left up to the soi-bois of the last four years to expand their vocabulary of meaningless and vapid insults to lodge THAT falsehood.
Indeed, the Confederate Leadership worked earnestly, diligently, patriotically to HEAL THE WOUNDS of the "recent unpleasantness" and help bring order to the southern states. These men were PATRIOTs of the HIGHEST ORDER - the total opposite of the insults of "traitor" being bandied about with all the "sound and fury, signifing nothing" of. chants of "black lives matter" nonsense. It is grist for the mentally immature and moral degenerates of the "bold new world" that we are suffering,
TRAITORs would have shrunk into the woods and plotted to RESIST the new order.
These were men of the HIGHEST character and deserve, at least, RESPECT.
This post was edited on 7/25/20 at 4:56 am
Posted on 7/25/20 at 8:06 am to NfamousPanda
quote:
One fought to liberate themselves from tyranny, the others fought to have the right to own other humans as property.
Simple answers for simple minds. The true underpinning of the civil war was the Tariff of Abominations which lead to the Nullification Crisis. Slavery wasn't introduced into the equation until Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation in September of 1862 which took effect on January 1, 1863. This changed the legal status under federal law of approximately 3.5 million blacks from slave to free IN THE CONFEDERATE STATES ONLY.
But winners write history and the North won. Thus the narrative that the Civil War was about slavery is only partly correct. However, the primary reason for the succession of the southern states was their fear of economic destruction by northern industrial interests and deep desire that the state governments not be subjected to federal authority.
Posted on 7/25/20 at 8:21 am to ljhog
Slavery was decided by one lone vote. 13 colonies at a stalemate, when the one vote was cast.
In the 1860 mindset. The moment those Generals resigned their commissions, they resigned their oath of allegiance to the United States of America.
By definition at that point ..... What would be the justification of any charge of Treason? None.
Otherwise, any Officer captured during the war would be immediately hung for treason. Funny that History is not on the side of those that scream treason the loudest. Doubt it? Ask Benedict Arnold .....Hung immediately when found guilty and it was during the war. And we were not a country ....yet.
That is the reason Abraham Lincoln had already decided to pardon all that took up arms "FOR THE CONFEDERACY" before he was assassinated.
I've asked this previously .... only half of the Confederate States mentioned slavery in their documents of separation .....
Exactly what was the North Fighting for? Hint ..it wasn't to free the slaves. Simple ....when up to 70% of all revenue came by way of tariffs collected at the southern ports ....The north faced being broke in less than a year. MONEY...
In the 1860 mindset. The moment those Generals resigned their commissions, they resigned their oath of allegiance to the United States of America.
By definition at that point ..... What would be the justification of any charge of Treason? None.
Otherwise, any Officer captured during the war would be immediately hung for treason. Funny that History is not on the side of those that scream treason the loudest. Doubt it? Ask Benedict Arnold .....Hung immediately when found guilty and it was during the war. And we were not a country ....yet.
That is the reason Abraham Lincoln had already decided to pardon all that took up arms "FOR THE CONFEDERACY" before he was assassinated.
I've asked this previously .... only half of the Confederate States mentioned slavery in their documents of separation .....
Exactly what was the North Fighting for? Hint ..it wasn't to free the slaves. Simple ....when up to 70% of all revenue came by way of tariffs collected at the southern ports ....The north faced being broke in less than a year. MONEY...
Posted on 7/25/20 at 8:39 am to Landmass
quote:
Slavery was one of many and wasn't the forefront concern for the 80% of confederate soldiers that did not own another human.
The rank and file Confederate Soilders aren't the issue, they didn't make the decision to secede or start the war.
The Leaders of the CSA(D) and the vast majority of the State Leaders that seceded were Democrats, you should read there 1860 Democratic Platform.
It was slavery. Pure and fricking simple. The Democrats were angry that Lincoln won the election as they viewed him as an existential threat to the institution of slavery.
They seceded, formed a government and army before he was inaugurated and attacked the United States 3 weeks after he was inaugurated.
This bares no resemblance and no comparison to George Washington and the Founding fathers.
This post was edited on 7/25/20 at 8:40 am
Posted on 7/25/20 at 8:43 am to bluedragon
Thanks for the history lessons
Since you don't know wtf you're talking about I'll pass on the rest of your tripe
quote:
Ask Benedict Arnold .....Hung immediately when found guilty and it was during the war. And we were not a country ....yet.
Since you don't know wtf you're talking about I'll pass on the rest of your tripe
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