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re: Israel / Hamas in a biblical context - any content recs?
Posted on 10/15/23 at 8:26 pm to Squirrelmeister
Posted on 10/15/23 at 8:26 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:
Seems like the asking forgiveness from a priest is still mandatory, no?
Yes and no. If you die before you're able to confess, then it's still valid. Sort of like how baptism isn't restricted to water baptism; you have baptism through water (the normative means), baptism through blood (martyrdom), and baptism through desire (deathbed conversions, periods of intense persecutions, and situations like that).
Also, the church dogmatically teaches that, although we as humans are bound by the sacraments, God is not.
Catechism #1257
This post was edited on 10/15/23 at 8:28 pm
0
Posted on 10/15/23 at 11:22 pm to Dixie2023
quote:
Only Jesus is sinless. Mary was just a vessel
You have arrived at this conclusion through a man-made interpretation of the scriptures.
How do you square Mary's visitation by the Angel Gabriel and the pronunciation that she is "full of grace"?
I know the arguement will not hold water for you, but the RCC understanding of the deposit of faith being contained in Tradition, Magisterium, and Scripture affords us the perfect belief in Mary's status as the Dei Genitrix free from sin.
You (and many Protestants) will jump to a conclusion that Mary didn't require Jesus for salvation but that is not a teaching of the RCC.
As with most arguements about Marian Dogmas, you need to start deeper and grapple with Sola Scriptura.
On the subject of "Bible alone", how does a person in 34, 85, or 200 AD recieve Truth in the absence of a Bible?
The central question I wish every Protestant would ask themselves (and which brought me back to Rome) is how God's Church could have operated for hundreds of years without a Bible.
How could the early Church (which definitely practiced the Sacraments) have been able to care for the needs of men and fulfill the Devine mandate without a Bible, if sola scriptura is to be believed?
How does a Bible even appear out of numerous letters and texts if there is not some other source of holy action that can weigh, certify, and bind?
Back to Mary, we are told that she was full of grace in scripture. We are not told that Mary was sinful like the rest of mankind. You have assumed that.
You afford the same body that gathered, certified, and bound the scripture together with inerrancy (at least with the New Testament) and reject their abilty to affirm what the scripture makes plain WRT Mary.
Posted on 10/16/23 at 5:08 am to Foch
All humans were born in sin. Mary included.
Christ wasn’t but he wasn’t just human but God in the flesh. Huge difference.
Same as Moses who spoke with God not just an angel. Same with Abraham who wrestled with good and found favor with God.
You do know why Jesus went to the “underworld” after death. To go to Abraham’s bosom where righteous people souls were at. Because they to needed salvation through Christ. It was a holding place. That is where the thought of purgatory comes for Catholics. However scripture clearly shows that Abraham bosom was gone after Jesus’s resurrection. There was a gulf between Hades (Hell) and Abraham’s bosom. After Jesus took the righteous out of there Hell expanded and there was no need for Abraham’s bosom. No need for a purgatory. Your soul can now be with God after death since the true and forever sacrifice was made.
Can’t remember who tried to point out differences in the 4 gospels. That is intentional as inspired by God. Matthew portrays Jesus as the Messiah, Mark portrays Jesus as the suffering Son of the Father, Luke portrays Jesus as the Savior of all, and John portrays Jesus as the Word of God made flesh.
Most Biblical scholars believe Luke’s writings are the most closely accurate to the daily movements and doings of Jesus daily. But all 4 describe his life and ministry just from a different perspective. It would be the same if 4 people observed their interactions with another person in todays world.
Christ wasn’t but he wasn’t just human but God in the flesh. Huge difference.
Same as Moses who spoke with God not just an angel. Same with Abraham who wrestled with good and found favor with God.
You do know why Jesus went to the “underworld” after death. To go to Abraham’s bosom where righteous people souls were at. Because they to needed salvation through Christ. It was a holding place. That is where the thought of purgatory comes for Catholics. However scripture clearly shows that Abraham bosom was gone after Jesus’s resurrection. There was a gulf between Hades (Hell) and Abraham’s bosom. After Jesus took the righteous out of there Hell expanded and there was no need for Abraham’s bosom. No need for a purgatory. Your soul can now be with God after death since the true and forever sacrifice was made.
Can’t remember who tried to point out differences in the 4 gospels. That is intentional as inspired by God. Matthew portrays Jesus as the Messiah, Mark portrays Jesus as the suffering Son of the Father, Luke portrays Jesus as the Savior of all, and John portrays Jesus as the Word of God made flesh.
Most Biblical scholars believe Luke’s writings are the most closely accurate to the daily movements and doings of Jesus daily. But all 4 describe his life and ministry just from a different perspective. It would be the same if 4 people observed their interactions with another person in todays world.
This post was edited on 10/16/23 at 5:10 am
Posted on 10/16/23 at 5:23 am to CorchJay
quote:
All humans were born in sin. Mary included.
You didn't respond to any questions about the meaning of Gabriel's words.
Similarly, what was the status of Christians for the first couple of hundred years when their faith had no scripture to be the "sole" source of truth?
Again, you assume Mary's sins despite direct evidence from the text to the contrary and cannot work your system of "Bible alone" in the year 110 AD.
Posted on 10/16/23 at 5:28 am to Foch
“Full of Grace”. Is because she had the living “Grace” inside her because she was pregnant with “Grace”. Not because of Mary’s Grace.
Nothing Biblical even mentions Mary as being sinless or to be revered. Of course Jesus loved his mother like we all love our Mothers but that doesn’t make here godly in any way. Doesn’t make her sinless. Jesus got his sinless nature from his father’s side not his mothers.
I have Grace through faith but I can still sin and do daily the same as all humans
Nothing Biblical even mentions Mary as being sinless or to be revered. Of course Jesus loved his mother like we all love our Mothers but that doesn’t make here godly in any way. Doesn’t make her sinless. Jesus got his sinless nature from his father’s side not his mothers.
I have Grace through faith but I can still sin and do daily the same as all humans
Posted on 10/16/23 at 5:36 am to Foch
quote:
Similarly, what was the status of Christians for the first couple of hundred years when their faith had no scripture to be the "sole" source of truth?
Word of mouth same as it was up until the printing press was developed. And mass Bibles were introduced. Only took about 2-300 years after everyone got Bibles to the see the fallacy of the Catholic Church. Only 52 percent of Christians are considered Catholic today. When people were uneducated and couldn’t read they had to go by what someone told them, also anyone that was Christian and not Catholic was killed, ostracized, or forced to fake it in the European world where the power of Rome reigned.
Currently
1.2 billion Catholics
1 billion Protestants
Posted on 10/16/23 at 6:31 am to CorchJay
quote:
When people were uneducated and couldn’t read they had to go by what someone told them
And today we have people like you.
Clearly, letting everyone make up their own mind was a mistake. Wack jobs like you are evidence of that. Posted on 10/16/23 at 6:48 am to Mo Jeaux
When you go to name calling you've lost the debate.
Seems strange the Bible specifically says that Mary will have to accept Jesus as her savior. How could she be without sin? Not one mention of Mary being sinless, not even close to mentioning it. If that were true then the apostles would have held reverence to her as well and they didn't other then being Jesus' mother. John (the most beloved by Jesus and probably the youngest) was Jesus's brother. Clearly stated by Jesus on the cross when he told John Here is your mother and Mary here is your son John. Then John took Jesus's place as the head male of the family and cared for his mother. As was Jewish tradition.
You go with your tradition. I will go with the Bible. See you at the finish line.
Seems strange the Bible specifically says that Mary will have to accept Jesus as her savior. How could she be without sin? Not one mention of Mary being sinless, not even close to mentioning it. If that were true then the apostles would have held reverence to her as well and they didn't other then being Jesus' mother. John (the most beloved by Jesus and probably the youngest) was Jesus's brother. Clearly stated by Jesus on the cross when he told John Here is your mother and Mary here is your son John. Then John took Jesus's place as the head male of the family and cared for his mother. As was Jewish tradition.
You go with your tradition. I will go with the Bible. See you at the finish line.
Posted on 10/16/23 at 6:53 am to SkiUtah420
The greek word for Grace is Charis... defined as gracious, favor, thankfulness. If used in a spiritual way it would be a gift/blessing brought by Jesus Christ.
Grace does not mean sinless in anyway shape or form
Grace does not mean sinless in anyway shape or form
This post was edited on 10/16/23 at 6:54 am
Posted on 10/16/23 at 6:56 am to CorchJay
quote:
You go with your tradition. I will go with the Bible. See you at the finish line.
Ah yes the Bible churches! Using Bible editions that came out yesterday
Be sure to grab your free coffee and tithe brother, we are looking at a new building next week
Posted on 10/16/23 at 6:57 am to SirWinston
No it's not. This is nothing even close to what will happen in the end times.
Posted on 10/16/23 at 7:02 am to CorchJay
quote:Jesus asked John to care for his mother while on the Cross. But brother; as in blood brother? Now James was a half brother. Hmmmm??
John (the most beloved by Jesus and probably the youngest) was Jesus's brother. Clearly stated by Jesus on the cross when he told John Here is your mother and Mary here is your son John. Then John took Jesus's place as the head male of the family and cared for his mother. As was Jewish tradition.
Posted on 10/16/23 at 7:05 am to texag7
I'm nondenominational. I'm Christian. Nothing more nothing less. However I have witnessed many denominations. Catholic, Baptist, Church of God, Methodist. All fall short.
If I associated with any doctrine church would probably lean closer to Baptist then any other church. However I don't agree everything they teach as well.
I see Catholics much like I see Mormans. Very confused by man made doctrine that isn't biblically sound. And again I was Catholic for 2 decades as an adult.
If I associated with any doctrine church would probably lean closer to Baptist then any other church. However I don't agree everything they teach as well.
I see Catholics much like I see Mormans. Very confused by man made doctrine that isn't biblically sound. And again I was Catholic for 2 decades as an adult.
Posted on 10/16/23 at 7:07 am to Diamondawg
quote:
Jesus asked John to care for his mother while on the Cross. But brother; as in blood brother? Now James was a half brother. Hmmmm??
yes James, John, Joseph, Judas (not that Judas) were all Jesus's brothers as in genetic brothers. he also had 2 unnamed sisters.
And I've heard the old well there wasn't a word for cousin blah blah blah...
Posted on 10/16/23 at 7:11 am to CorchJay
quote:
nondenominational
This only means your group either hasn't written down what they believe/what makes you different from other protestants OR your way of worship hasn't attracted others and opened franchises.
One day you may have a denomination named after your church. Something like the Highlanderians (Church of the Highlands), Campus Chapelers (Chapel on the Campus in BR), or Healing Placers.
One could argue that Arc churches attempt to act in a loose confederation that implies a denomination.
This post was edited on 10/16/23 at 7:15 am
Posted on 10/16/23 at 7:11 am to CorchJay
quote:Not blood related. Sorry! Jesus' brothers (or half brother - James) did not become believers until after the resurrection and were not even present during the crucifixion. In fact, prior to the resurrection, James thought Jesus was looney tunes.
John
Posted on 10/16/23 at 7:12 am to Diamondawg
You've never thought your brother was looney tunes?
Posted on 10/16/23 at 7:18 am to Foch
quote:
This only means your group either hasn't written down what they believe/what makes you different from other protestants OR your way of worship hasn't attracted others and opened franchises
maybe you don't understand what nondenominational means. I don't have a group. I don't need group think. The Bible interprets the bible if you know how to cross reference and how to tie it all together through the Old Testament to the New Testament.
Never said I believed differently then most Protestants. Only slight differences nothing that would be contention of how salvation is granted.
I got an idea maybe I could call my Church or belief system the Universal Church and force all Christians to believe what I believe and if not I kill them and i destroy any records/documents they have. Then place myself as the head of the Church and call myself the Pope. And hundreds of years later show God established my church and Peter was the first preacher of my church and then Paul since I'm biblical.
What you Catholic dummies don't understand is Church wasn't a building or a denomination. It was any believer... any Christian belongs to the Church established by Jesus. If you are Catholic and are saved by faith through Grace you are in the Church, same if you are orthodox, Pentecostal, Baptist, Methodist, nondenominational, if you are Jewish or Arab, White black or Roman. It doesn't matter. The "Church" is not physical or even doctrinal thing. It is the body of believers in Christ and Christ alone.
This post was edited on 10/16/23 at 7:27 am
Posted on 10/16/23 at 8:01 am to CorchJay
But to add more to the original question from the OP. We have no idea if this altercation between Hamas and the Jews have anything to do with Biblical prophecy.
Unfulfilled prophecies in the Bible in my opinion are the destruction and uninhabitable Damascus which could happen at anytime before the end of earth. It doesn't have to happen at any certain time nor does other prophecies depend on the destruction of Damascus.
For me I am a pretrib rapture believer. There is nothing needed to be completed for Jesus to snatch away his believers. It will happened so fast nonbelievers will never know what really happened. I don't believe in a gap theory between the Rapture and the Tribulation. Some do some don't I personally don't. I think as soon as the believers "The Church" is taken away with those being filled and sealed with the Holy Spirit that the Antichrist comes on the scene to kick of the first half of the tribulation (1260 days). The antichrist in the first half of the tribulation is called the Man of Sin but speaks as a lamb and deceives many. The 2 witnesses also come on the scene to preach the gospel of Jesus. Multiple different beliefs on who those 2 could be. Enoch, Elijah, Moses, John all seem to be the primary contenders. The will preach until the midpoint of the Tribulation and will be killed by the antichrist and lay for 3 days to be mocked by unbelievers. At that point Satan possesses the Antichrist and he is then referred to as the Son of Perdition. He enters the 3rd temple and defiles it and places an image of himself in the Holy of Holies to be worshipped. Jews were instructed of a place to flee in the old testament and then reminded by Jesus of the place to flee in the end times. It was called Bozrah in the OT and is known as Petra today. So there will be no confusion of where the place prepared is. 144,000 Jewish male virgins will preach the gospel as the antichrist goes out to destroy the Jewish people and tries to kill them but God provides protection for them. Jesus returns at the second coming to earth to Bozrah and defeats the antichrist and those located there. That's why his next destination he shows up in blood covered garments at the Mount of Olives where he defends the invading armies and causes a great earthquake.
That's the basics of the tribulation. There are many other story lines that affect people that don't go in the rapture such as you can't take the mark of the beast and make it heaven. All the wraths of judgement poured out on the earth. Death and famine will be widespread during the 2nd half of the tribulation.
Oh forgot a big thing regarding the tribulation. The first sign of the Antichrist may be the signing of some type of peace treaty allowing the Jewish people to build the 3rd temple. They have everything ready even several red hefers without blemish that are at the proper age. My guess is it would probably take Israel 9 months to completely build the temple.
Unfulfilled prophecies in the Bible in my opinion are the destruction and uninhabitable Damascus which could happen at anytime before the end of earth. It doesn't have to happen at any certain time nor does other prophecies depend on the destruction of Damascus.
For me I am a pretrib rapture believer. There is nothing needed to be completed for Jesus to snatch away his believers. It will happened so fast nonbelievers will never know what really happened. I don't believe in a gap theory between the Rapture and the Tribulation. Some do some don't I personally don't. I think as soon as the believers "The Church" is taken away with those being filled and sealed with the Holy Spirit that the Antichrist comes on the scene to kick of the first half of the tribulation (1260 days). The antichrist in the first half of the tribulation is called the Man of Sin but speaks as a lamb and deceives many. The 2 witnesses also come on the scene to preach the gospel of Jesus. Multiple different beliefs on who those 2 could be. Enoch, Elijah, Moses, John all seem to be the primary contenders. The will preach until the midpoint of the Tribulation and will be killed by the antichrist and lay for 3 days to be mocked by unbelievers. At that point Satan possesses the Antichrist and he is then referred to as the Son of Perdition. He enters the 3rd temple and defiles it and places an image of himself in the Holy of Holies to be worshipped. Jews were instructed of a place to flee in the old testament and then reminded by Jesus of the place to flee in the end times. It was called Bozrah in the OT and is known as Petra today. So there will be no confusion of where the place prepared is. 144,000 Jewish male virgins will preach the gospel as the antichrist goes out to destroy the Jewish people and tries to kill them but God provides protection for them. Jesus returns at the second coming to earth to Bozrah and defeats the antichrist and those located there. That's why his next destination he shows up in blood covered garments at the Mount of Olives where he defends the invading armies and causes a great earthquake.
That's the basics of the tribulation. There are many other story lines that affect people that don't go in the rapture such as you can't take the mark of the beast and make it heaven. All the wraths of judgement poured out on the earth. Death and famine will be widespread during the 2nd half of the tribulation.
Oh forgot a big thing regarding the tribulation. The first sign of the Antichrist may be the signing of some type of peace treaty allowing the Jewish people to build the 3rd temple. They have everything ready even several red hefers without blemish that are at the proper age. My guess is it would probably take Israel 9 months to completely build the temple.
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