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Message
re: Let's Talk Common Core
Posted on 12/3/14 at 9:56 pm to NeathOrangeandBlue
Posted on 12/3/14 at 9:56 pm to NeathOrangeandBlue
quote:
It's the creation of a nationwide standard for education. I'm not really following you. The implementation of these standards brought on these new teaching methods that drive people who've never seen them up the crazy.
Common core doesn't instruct anybody how to implement the process to reach their objectives. That is up to school districts. People get pissed about common core when, if they have issues with the curriculum should be upset with the school districts who actually choose the curriculum.
4
Posted on 12/3/14 at 10:06 pm to RollTheRock
quote:
ommon core doesn't instruct anybody how to implement the process to reach their objectives. That is up to school districts. People get pissed about common core when, if they have issues with the curriculum should be upset with the school districts who actually choose the curriculum.
the federal government is still at fault here.
creating a national standard is problematic because it tries to universalize something that should be determined on the local level.
Kids in California have a different average IQ than kids in Louisiana. Why should the kids in California have the same standards as Kids in Louisiana?
to put it simpler. Why should less intelligent people determine the standards of more intelligent people or visa vera?
When you create a universal standard you don't take into account each individual situation. Common Core math may work well in some states, horrible in others. Shouldn't states determine what is best for their citizens?
Let me put another way.
would you want the mayor of your town determining what your kids do all the time?
Things should always be done on the lowest level possible.
This post was edited on 12/3/14 at 10:06 pm
Posted on 12/3/14 at 10:09 pm to catholictigerfan
I'm done with this for the night.
have a good one.
have a good one.
Posted on 12/3/14 at 10:12 pm to RollTheRock
It doesn't instruct them how to teach specifically but it leads the teachers there with the standards in place, which may be good or maybe not (I say not btw). You're right in that the argument is usually misdirected. The real debate with Common Core is whether or not you think it's appropriate for the standards to be put in place at the federal level and this, for whatever reason, trickles down to math teaching debates.
Posted on 12/3/14 at 10:13 pm to RollTheRock
Common Core is a set of standards.
-kids in grade "x" should know "a" before being promoted to grade "y".
How you get from point "x" to point "y" depends on individual school districts. Some may require Eureka Math while others may allow teachers to use their own materials and styles.
Most parents think they have issues with Common Core when in reality they have issues with Eureka Math or any number of other curriculum plans sprinkled amongst the major subjects.
-kids in grade "x" should know "a" before being promoted to grade "y".
How you get from point "x" to point "y" depends on individual school districts. Some may require Eureka Math while others may allow teachers to use their own materials and styles.
Most parents think they have issues with Common Core when in reality they have issues with Eureka Math or any number of other curriculum plans sprinkled amongst the major subjects.
Posted on 12/4/14 at 4:52 am to RollTheRock
quote:
That's my point. There is no such thing as common core english, science or math.
yes there is. There are pages long lists of standards for ELA (English Language Arts). Science is coming next year but I'm not sure if it's from the federal level or state level. (I don't teach science but I did hear the new standards will be out next year)
Posted on 12/4/14 at 7:50 am to RollTheRock
quote:
Common core doesn't instruct anybody how to implement the process to reach their objectives. That is up to school districts. People get pissed about common core when, if they have issues with the curriculum should be upset with the school districts who actually choose the curriculum.
Exactly what I've heard as well.
Posted on 12/4/14 at 8:06 am to LSUFanHouston
There is no way that a first grader is ready to really learn addition and subtraction, and certainly not graphs or anything else even approaching that. Kids are being pushed to supposedly learn concepts that are way beyond their capabilities in terms of development. A first grader is still learning how to write numbers, what numbers are, etc. Developmentally, they are not ready for the ridiculous things they are being pushed to do. And this trend continues throughout higher grades; kids are being asked to deal with concepts which are not only being poorly taught but for which they don't have the proper foundation. My dh has a PhD in Physics. He's been looking at some textbooks and such that are being used these days and shakes his head in (negative) amazement because kids are being accelerated at a level that is unnecessary and inconsistent with their development as kids.
Posted on 12/4/14 at 8:08 am to haricot rouge
That is exactly the problem, Common Core doesn't instruct anybody....in anything. Teachers have little to no training in how to teach this new junk, and yet they are expected to teach the kids. It's all because the school districts were fooled into taking the millions of dollars used as bait by the feds, and now are stuck into teaching this nonsense or having to return same millions of dollars which, by now, many have spent already.
Posted on 12/4/14 at 8:43 am to conservativewifeymom
quote:
Kids are being pushed to supposedly learn concepts that are way beyond their capabilities in terms of development
So it's too hard for the poor kids?
Fact is, we've now had a couple of generation of stupid kids. There are probably many reasons for that, but one of them certainly is that they were not being challenged, and that they were not being taught things soon enough.
Do you really think our education system as of 3 years ago was ok?
By the way, my first grader could count to 100 in Kindergarten and isn't having any issues with what she's learning in first grade.
Posted on 12/4/14 at 8:45 am to conservativewifeymom
quote:
That is exactly the problem, Common Core doesn't instruct anybody....in anything. Teachers have little to no training in how to teach this new junk, and yet they are expected to teach the kids. It's all because the school districts were fooled into taking the millions of dollars used as bait by the feds, and now are stuck into teaching this nonsense or having to return same millions of dollars which, by now, many have spent already.
It's not at all nonsense... but I 100 percent agree with you that the training of teachers was completely screwed up. That's because this was dropped all at once. If they would have implemented this over maybe 12 years (by starting in 1st grade and adding a grade a year), I think the teachers would be better at this.
On the other hand, I can understand not wanting to waste another generation on the crappy education system we had in place.
Posted on 12/4/14 at 8:47 am to catholictigerfan
quote:
stop trying to compare math which is basic logical systems, to theoretical systems. Like history, literature, philosophy etc. Memorization does nothing to help you really get at history literature and philosophy, but it sure does help in math
See this is where I'm not sure you understand what is happening. No one is taking away memorization of basic math facts. Every day, the kid does math facts. She has a math facts test once a week. She has to memorize these and very quickly spit them out, in a couple of seconds time. This week, it's +11 (i.e. 1+11, 2+11, etc).
Posted on 12/4/14 at 8:58 am to LSUFanHouston
quote:
See this is where I'm not sure you understand what is happening. No one is taking away memorization of basic math facts. Every day, the kid does math facts. She has a math facts test once a week. She has to memorize these and very quickly spit them out, in a couple of seconds time. This week, it's +11 (i.e. 1+11, 2+11, etc).
I'm not going to argue it's implementation anymore.
I'm still not convinced it is more effective, but maybe it is.
My main problem is that we are universalizing standards. Which I believe to be destructive.
Posted on 12/4/14 at 9:14 am to catholictigerfan
quote:
My main problem is that we are universalizing standards. Which I believe to be destructive.
Why?
We live in a time where growing up, working, and dying in the same hometown doesn't happen too much anymore. People are always moving all over the country, and the world really. And if you spend some time outside Louisiana, you quickly learn that our school standards are far, far behind some other states.
If the education leaders in Louisiana could set their own standards that were as rigorous as other states have, then I would have no problem with LA opting out of CCSS and having our own LA standards. But what have you seen in the last 50 years that would give any indication our leaders could actually do that? Cause I haven't seen anything.
Simply put, we are doing a disservice by having our students in LA have lower standards than students in California, or Texas, or Michigan, or New Hampshire. And if the only way we are going to get our students up to par is to adopt a national standard, then I have to support that.
Posted on 12/4/14 at 9:21 am to LSUFanHouston
Great for your first grader! But she's not typical. I don't think the system of 3 years ago was better, but I DO think the system of 30, or 50 years ago was. Math has been done and taught pretty much the same way for many decades, but now it's been decided that that was not good enough and some other incomprehensible way is being taught which, by the way, the kids shouldn't ask their parents' help with because the parents (dummies) won't be able to help because they don't know it. (a friend's 5th grader was actually told this in class by the teacher, friend is a doctor). There is such a thing as age-appropriate concepts. If not, let's teach calculus in 5th grade just to.....oh, challenge the kids! Not!
Posted on 12/4/14 at 9:27 am to anc
(no message)
This post was edited on 1/21/21 at 11:34 am
Posted on 12/4/14 at 9:40 am to Wee Ice Mon
quote:
The common core discussion isn't complete with out the executive order that was issued to compliment it. The Obama administration gutted FERPA which protected a child's personal information. The parent's consent is no longer required for this info to be made available to anyone the state DOE deems appropriate...mainly 3rd party vendors. It's all about Big Data. The PARCC testing is a huge part of the data grab. This why the states were required to build databases with the race to the top funds.
Huge point of contention here... this is and always was a large data mining project along with some social engineering sprinkled in.
This post was edited on 12/4/14 at 9:42 am
Posted on 12/4/14 at 10:20 am to LSUFanHouston
quote:
Why?
simple Bureaucrats in Washington don't know what is best for kids in Louisiana. I would say that the school board for each individual parish/county would know what is best for their students.
The reason it is destructive, if a large portion of students don't reach the national standard than that will likely be lowered in order to help the lower students. one set standard hurts students who are well educated. Because if everyone has the same standards than a student who is better educated has to slow down while others catch up, meaning he learns less.
Think about a student in a math class. He has mastered multiplication tables while the majority of his class is still working on them. He wants to go on to the next concept working ahead of everyone else in class, and learning about fractions. The teacher tells him no you need to keep working on your multiplication tables. That student is now put behind because he has to wait for other students to finish their work so to speak. If a student goes past the standard he has no motivation to go on further.
I think something like advanced placement classes, magnet schools, vocational schools are a good thing for society, because they allow students who are more intelligent get a hand up on other people. Now I know liberals hate things like this, but this is how our culture has worked for hundreds of years.
If you bring down the smarter to bring up the dumber it hurts society as a whole. Someone who is smarter has a better chance to succeed in life and therefore should be encouraged to progress in that success.
I'm fine with programs that will raise standards overall, but I think something that is necessary is that smarter students who perform well above average have a chance to have a specialized education so to speak.
quote:
And if you spend some time outside Louisiana, you quickly learn that our school standards are far, far behind some other states.
I know this, but the solution isn't to hurt other states with higher standards to help raise Louisiana standards. Raising Louisiana standards will take time. Louisiana will continue to be behind the ball.
There is nothing wrong with raising or lowering standards but let states and local school boards make those decisions not some politician in Washington who knows nothing about the situation in Louisiana.
Posted on 12/4/14 at 4:56 pm to RollTheRock
quote:
You're a teacher? Wow.
Yes, I am. A very good one. And I'm also pretty darned intelligent. I misread a post late, after a long day. My apologies, but thanks for the rudeness.
The generation that is now in their 20's (my own kids are part of it) got a lousy education. Have you all ever heard of "Whole Language?" In the 90's there was NO phonics instruction, NO spelling instruction, kids were expected to learn to read, spell, and become grammatically proficient via osmosis--simply by doing it. Problem is, if kids don't like to read, they won't read enough to learn this way. Phonics--and workbook (drill and kill, they started calling it) was "boring" and didn't reach the "whole child" . What bullshite. I was home raising my kids during this era thank goodness, because I would not have been able to teach that way with a clear conscience.My kids' teacher actually told me they were NOT ALLOWED to teach spelling. My kids also learned Math via "Chicago Math/Everyday Mathematics" which was CRAP when it first came out. It was full of high level concepts and NO basic fact memorization. Our town's test scores were through the roof on "concepts" but in the basement for "computation". Over the years, phonics came back in gradually, and Everyday Mathematics added more computational work into their program. But a generation was already ruined.
So, I support attempts to make schools better, and teach kids to be literate and critical thinkers. However, I do not support the way Common Core was pushed through without a shred of evidence that these standards were good ones.
While it is said that CC is not a 'curriculum' but just a set of standards that can be taught however a district wants, in reality it can only be effectively taught using materials that have been created to be aligned with the standards, and use the same language and style as the test created to measure growth. Textbook companies have made a MINT off this. They are selling new textbook series to support the new standards and they're writing the tests that the states are adopting! So, schools would be crazy not to purchase the program put out by the very same people who are designing the test. Lots of $$$$ going into a lot of hands. We teachers are left with almost zero flexibility in teaching methods or materials.
You may find this hard to believe, but I promise you it is the truth. In a neighboring district to mine, when teachers are observed, the administrator asks the children to tell him/her WHICH CC standard is being taught (by NUMBER) and be able to QUOTE the standard verbatim. WHY?? Yes it's important they know the objective of the lesson (which we've always done) but there are PAGES of numbered standards and they look like this:
5.NF.4.a Interpret the product (a/b) × q as a parts of a partition of q into b equal parts; equivalently, as the result of a sequence of operations a × q ÷ b. For example, use a visual fraction model to show (2/3) × 4 = 8/3, and create a story context for this equation. Do the same with (2/3) × (4/5) = 8/15. (In general, (a/b) × (c/d) = ac/bd.)
Now THAT is a waste of time, trying to get kids to know the standards by number and verbatim. And it's not just one district doing that. Our priorities are very misplaced right now in education. I want better education too, but this isn't the answer.
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