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Message
re: Things Libertarians need to realize...
Posted on 2/12/14 at 11:14 am to Zach
Posted on 2/12/14 at 11:14 am to Zach
quote:
You have a jaundiced view of libertarianism.
No Zach, I dont. You are usually dead on the money with posts on this board and I respect what you have to say but I understand Libertarianism.
quote:
We are for freedom and that means limited govt and private property rights.
In theory, yes Libertarians believe this. I
believe the same thing.
In reality it often gets manifested by Libertarians being consumed by or THE PERCEPTION that Libertarians priortize social issues over fiscal issues.
Perception is way more powerful than reality. I loved Ron Paul but he was destroyed by the way mainstream conservatives perceived him. This had a lot to do with himself and his supporters.
It cant be an all or nothing game. If it is, Libertarians are about as useful to their own cause as a blister on the bottom of a runners foot.
This post was edited on 2/12/14 at 11:19 am
3
Posted on 2/12/14 at 11:14 am to Mickey Goldmill
quote:
Changes have been made to law which restricted who can get married. "Federal legalization" of gay marriage is not giving the federal government more power. It's giving more freedom to the public.
So, increasing government's control over who can get married doesn't expand their reach? People won't get sued for refusing their services if they disagree due to religious beliefs? That is government interjecting itself into the religious aspect of this, and it is already happening. True fundamental conservatives want government out of marriage.
quote:
And nobody is touching religion so no need to even bring that up here.
Separation if church and state is a big key to libertarianism and the role of our government. Marriage was brought up, so religion must be discussed.
This post was edited on 2/12/14 at 11:17 am
Posted on 2/12/14 at 11:16 am to SmackDaniels
I would say Libertarians are way more like the Tea Party than they think.
Tea Party in my eyes, and I consider my self a hard core Tea Party person
Tea Party
Small Government
State control goverment, not federal
T.E.A. Taxed Enough Already (Which I'm find if you want to raise taxes to the same as they were in the Clinton years, the catch is, we go back to the spending habits we had in the Clinton years also.)
Stay out of my money, my health, my lifestyle(bedroom), my internet and don't tell me what to do on Sundays.
That's a big finger to Big Government Repubs and Dems.
Brace yourselves but I just listed a lot of things that the evil Ted Cruz agrees with. Also Rand Paul.
Tea Party in my eyes, and I consider my self a hard core Tea Party person
Tea Party
Small Government
State control goverment, not federal
T.E.A. Taxed Enough Already (Which I'm find if you want to raise taxes to the same as they were in the Clinton years, the catch is, we go back to the spending habits we had in the Clinton years also.)
Stay out of my money, my health, my lifestyle(bedroom), my internet and don't tell me what to do on Sundays.
That's a big finger to Big Government Repubs and Dems.
Brace yourselves but I just listed a lot of things that the evil Ted Cruz agrees with. Also Rand Paul.
Posted on 2/12/14 at 11:17 am to bamafan1001
quote:
THE PERCEPTION that Libertarians priortize this over fiscal issues.
You need to expand your readings. Libertarians are extremely concerned with fiscal issues and most would probably list it as their top priority.
And then you go and bring up Ron Paul and talk about his perception when the man fricking literally wrote the ultimate book on fiscal issues, "End The Fed."
You have no idea what you are even talking about.
Posted on 2/12/14 at 11:17 am to WikiTiger
quote:
OP does not understand libertarianism or has a skewed view of it based on limited personal interactions.
Oh I understand Libertarianism completely. I also understand why there arent any Libertarians in a position to make any positive changes to our government.
Posted on 2/12/14 at 11:18 am to WikiTiger
quote:
Plus, OP is delusional.
quote:
Your post does not understand the christian right or has a skewed view of it based on limited personal interactions
Posted on 2/12/14 at 11:20 am to WikiTiger
quote:
Libertarians are extremely concerned with fiscal issues and most would probably list it as their top priority
They were no where to be found in the last election.
I'm convinced that Mitt Romney would have been Bill Clinton 2.0 without the sexual harassment.
Posted on 2/12/14 at 11:20 am to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
So, increasing government's control over who can get married doesn't expand their reach? People won't get sued for refusing their services if they disagree due to religious beliefs? That is government interjecting itself into the religious aspect of this, and it is already happening. True fundamental conservatives was government out of marriage.
The topic of anti-discrimination laws is a totally separate issue. Can you not focus here?
The government was already given more power, mostly by voters in the past 2 decades, to restrict and define marriage. Are you seriously going to argue that giving more people the right to marry isn't giving them more rights & freedoms?
The Catholic Church doesn't recognize all marriages, even between two Catholics. Civil marriage and religious marriage are two totally different things. Stop forcing your personal, religious beliefs onto other private individuals regarding who they can marry.
Now the discrimination laws is a totally separate issue, one that we probably agree with. If a private business wants to discriminate, they probably should be allowed to in most cases.
But again, totally separate issues.
Posted on 2/12/14 at 11:23 am to bamafan1001
quote:
In reality it often gets manifested by Libertarians being consumed by or THE PERCEPTION that Libertarians priortize social issues over fiscal issues.
dude, libertarians want the government to get completely out of the social issue business...
Posted on 2/12/14 at 11:23 am to bamafan1001
quote:
1) Fiscal issues matter way more than minute social issues(gay marriage etc)
2) Overreaching government(IRS, NSA) matters way more than minute social issues
Freedom matters. Freedom matters in all forms. If you ignore the freedom of others when that freedom doesn't particularly matter to you, you are compromising the freedoms of all.
And no...I'm not gonna "get over myself".
Posted on 2/12/14 at 11:25 am to Mickey Goldmill
quote:
The government was already given more power, mostly by voters in the past 2 decades, to restrict and define marriage. Are you seriously going to argue that giving more people the right to marry isn't giving them more rights & freedoms?
No, I am arguing it gives the government more regulatory power. This why I want the government out of marriage.
quote:
The Catholic Church doesn't recognize all marriages, even between two Catholics. Civil marriage and religious marriage are two totally different things. Stop forcing your personal, religious beliefs onto other private individuals regarding who they can marry.
I'm not religious, so what does this have to do with my personal views on it? I have no problem with gays marrying. I do have a problem with government trying to define it though.
quote:
Now the discrimination laws is a totally separate issue, one that we probably agree with. If a private business wants to discriminate, they probably should be allowed to in most cases.
Agreed.
Posted on 2/12/14 at 11:27 am to ForeLSU
quote:
dude, libertarians want the government to get completely out of the social issue business...
So you don't think a lot of self-described Libertarians voted in favor of changing state constitutions restricting the marriage rights of gay people?
One is a negative right (limiting the ability of private persons) and one is a positive right (granting rights to private persons). The government isn't getting out of marriage because it's a civil, legal contract with countless legal ramifications.
So Libertarians would have to ask themselves: Give private citizens more rights or less rights?
Posted on 2/12/14 at 11:28 am to Mickey Goldmill
quote:
Are you seriously going to argue that giving more people the right to marry isn't giving them more rights & freedoms?
yes, having to be "granted a right" is not freedom in any way. Freedom would be the government getting out of the marriage business.
Posted on 2/12/14 at 11:29 am to WikiTiger
quote:
quote:
THE PERCEPTION that Libertarians priortize this over fiscal issues.
You need to expand your readings. Libertarians are extremely concerned with fiscal issues and most would probably list it as their top priority.
And then you go and bring up Ron Paul and talk about his perception when the man fricking literally wrote the ultimate book on fiscal issues, "End The Fed."
You have no idea what you are even talking about.
Wiki I understand Libertarinism. You are missing my point by 100 miles.
The problem with Libertarians is yall's attitudes towards people who either dont fully understand Libertarianism or who you perceive dont.
If people dont understand your cause...whose fault is that?
Posted on 2/12/14 at 11:29 am to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
I have no problem with gays marrying. I do have a problem with government trying to define it though.
That is exactly my point. In most cases, VOTERS defined it. Voters gave that additional power to the government because they let personal views take precedence over individual liberty.
Posted on 2/12/14 at 11:29 am to Zach
quote:
Zach
I don't always agree with you on here, but that post was spot on.
This post was edited on 2/12/14 at 11:30 am
Posted on 2/12/14 at 11:30 am to ForeLSU
quote:
yes, having to be "granted a right" is not freedom in any way. Freedom would be the government getting out of the marriage business.
You realize every single right you have has been granted to you already?
Posted on 2/12/14 at 11:34 am to Mickey Goldmill
quote:
So you don't think a lot of self-described Libertarians voted in favor of changing state constitutions restricting the marriage rights of gay people?
many folks' self-descriptions are wrong.
Posted on 2/12/14 at 11:34 am to bamafan1001
quote:
4) The Christian right is fighting the same battles on the same side as Libertarians on 1 and 2
In my experience, this isn't accurate.
Posted on 2/12/14 at 11:39 am to bamafan1001
I need to further expand apon my last post.
I get that there are no "issues" for Libertarians. Its either liberty or not. Im down with that. That is my viewpoint as well.
The problem is that 99% of people out there see everything as an "issue." This viewpoint is encouraged by the media, pop culture, everything.
Its a game in which the rules were set a long time ago. Failure to 1) operate within these rules or 2)failure to convice others that the game is rigged results in failure.
Most Libertarians choose to do neither. They would rather sit by and watch the country burn while throwing sticks at the ones trying to put it out.
I get that there are no "issues" for Libertarians. Its either liberty or not. Im down with that. That is my viewpoint as well.
The problem is that 99% of people out there see everything as an "issue." This viewpoint is encouraged by the media, pop culture, everything.
Its a game in which the rules were set a long time ago. Failure to 1) operate within these rules or 2)failure to convice others that the game is rigged results in failure.
Most Libertarians choose to do neither. They would rather sit by and watch the country burn while throwing sticks at the ones trying to put it out.
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