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re: Things Libertarians need to realize...
Posted on 2/12/14 at 12:49 pm to Mickey Goldmill
Posted on 2/12/14 at 12:49 pm to Mickey Goldmill
quote:Marriage does not belong in the realm of government at all. No one should get perks or privileges doled out by the state. We all should be a minority of one - we all should have the same exact rights, and by rights I mean the traditional notion of negative rights.
What is ironic is when "Less Government" Republicans go to the polls to restrict who can get married. And now they don't wanna talk about "social issues" anymore. Those are the same people who gave the government that power in the first place.
Then you and I could recognize (or not) any unions we want to as "Marriages" and the state would be powerless to force either of us to recognize anything.
2
Posted on 2/12/14 at 12:53 pm to Zach
quote:
If Libertarians are not up for advancing their cause, what are they?
Philosophically consistent. Our litmus test is freedom of the individual.
You are no different than any other elitist, then. Dont care about real results as long as you can sit by and throw stones at those you deem lesser.
quote:
Ah, libertarians give you IQ envy. How sad.
I dont envy losers.
quote:
If 90% of the country feels instead of thinks how is that going to change by them by reading?
I can't believe you actually wrote that sentence. I know you can read because you have a computer. Don't you read books?
I do. Ive read a lot of book most of which have to do my occupation in physiology but I know real world, applicable science is boring to you Libertarians.
Im glad Rand Paul came to his senses and doesnt act like a majority of Libertarian jackasses. Im sure though he is not "pure" enough for yall though right?
This post was edited on 2/12/14 at 12:56 pm
Posted on 2/12/14 at 12:55 pm to bamafan1001
quote:Ummm…yea, we know. Libertarians aren't the ones making a big deal out of the social issues.
1) Fiscal issues matter way more than minute social issues(gay marriage etc)
quote:Agreed, but like I said, libertarians aren't the ones making a big deal out of the social issues.
) Overreaching government(IRS, NSA) matters way more than minute social issues
quote:That isn't what I've seen. If that was the case, the social issues that you are obviously referencing wouldn't even be an issue in elections.
4) The Christian right is fighting the same battles on the same side as Libertarians on 1 and 2
quote:I agree with this.
5) Your strategies of ridicule and criticism are ineffective. They dont win others to your cause, they cause the other side to become defensive
quote:And the Christian right needs to realize that the government isn't an extension of their religion. If their religion does not support a certain action, they don't need to legislate it away. They need to simply not partake in said action as their religion states. Pretty simple.
6) Many on the Christian right are more Libertarian than you probably think. They just need to be convinced that Libertarian viewpoints can coincide with Christian beliefs. Joining in with the left to demean the Christian right doesnt help your cause
quote:And I don't want them to ignore the teachings of their bible. What I want is for them to quit trying to legislate the teachings of their bible. That is a fairly straightforward and simple concept.
8) Expecting the Christian right to ignore the teachings of the Bible(whether you think they are fairy tales or not) will result in major frustration for YOU
Posted on 2/12/14 at 12:58 pm to bamafan1001
quote:
7) Discussion of ideology alone will not accomplish anything. The GOP needs more Libertarian candidates and less Libertarian peanut galleries
Ill end with this. Yall have a great day
Posted on 2/12/14 at 12:58 pm to Mickey Goldmill
quote:Basic disconnect. The government can not give people more rights & freedoms - it can only take them away.
The government was already given more power, mostly by voters in the past 2 decades, to restrict and define marriage. Are you seriously going to argue that giving more people the right to marry isn't giving them more rights & freedoms?
quote:Here I agree with you 100%. I say let's strive to keep it that way by all means.
Civil marriage and religious marriage are two totally different things.
To wit, I propose we leave religious marriage alone, since it is not a state sponsored institution but a traditional one, and call all other unions 'Civil Unions'. Problem solved!
Posted on 2/12/14 at 1:01 pm to Mickey Goldmill
quote:
What is ironic is when "Less Government" Republicans go to the polls to restrict who can get married.
Other than California, what states have voted on gay marriage at the polls?
Posted on 2/12/14 at 1:07 pm to bamafan1001
quote:
The GOP needs more Libertarian candidates and less Libertarian peanut galleries
Best line from your rant.
Posted on 2/12/14 at 1:08 pm to bamafan1001
quote:
bamafan1001
I was going to stay out of this thread, but this whole topic basically seems like you are trying to say this in a round about way:
"Look Libertarians, stop voting Libertarian and continue voting Republican because we aren't that different. Give up pushing through your ideas because you look overzealous."
Truth be told, on paper you are correct. The reason many libertarians would vote for a Republican is because of the fiscal issues. However, in practice, the Republicans like to spend as much as the Dems. They just tend to put the money in a different pile. Try bringing that up in a conversation with a Christian Right Republican though, and it's like you just spit in his face (from my experience). I actually went to a Santorum speech one time and I had people trying to tell me the errors of Libertarians with Bible quotes.
As for the supporters, from personal experience, the reason we were "annoying" is because the "main stream" Rs wouldn't give us the time of day. We would get labeled as hippies and "Muslim sympathizers" and isolationists for even talking about Libertarian ideology. Basically we would get laughed out of any conversation by "main stream" R anti-libertarian talking points before we could even try to state a position. I mean hell, RP was barely ever mentioned the whole primary despite placing fairly high early on. To put this another way, if you were to go and try to talk about how good you think some R stance is great on Democratic Underground you know you wouldn't be treated very well. Now imagine that, everyday, in almost every political conversation and you start to realize why many of the supporters got annoyed with the party rather quickly.
With all that said though I have a question for you. If you think that Libertarians should just not care about gay marriage and vote Republican would it be fair to say the same of Christian Right and have them vote Libertarian and stop caring about gay marriage?
Posted on 2/12/14 at 1:11 pm to bamafan1001
quote:
minute social issues(gay marriage etc)
let me guess you consider abortion a part of this?
Posted on 2/12/14 at 1:14 pm to bamafan1001
quote:And the establishment, with money and power to control the media, know this as well.
Perception is way more powerful than reality.
It's why they demonize anything anti-establishment. It's why they use the media to confuse people about things like Libertarians, Ron Paul, the Tea Party, etc., resulting in OP's such as this one.
It's also why nothing ever changes regardless of whether an "R" or a "D" is in office.
Posted on 2/12/14 at 1:21 pm to LSUnKaty
quote:
No one should get perks or privileges doled out by the state. We all should be a minority of one - we all should have the same exact rights, and by rights I mean the traditional notion of negative rights.
I wish people would just stop with the "get govt totally out of marriage" argument. It's not going to happen. Ever. It's a total waste of time even discussing it. Marriage has not historically always been just a religious institution. Do a little research. Religion does not "own" marriage.
And right now, not everyone has the exact same rights. That is the problem.
Posted on 2/12/14 at 1:24 pm to Mickey Goldmill
quote:
I wish people would just stop with the "get govt totally out of marriage" argument.
It's a pretty silly trope that borders on being completely meaningless.
Posted on 2/12/14 at 1:25 pm to LSUnKaty
quote:
Basic disconnect. The government can not give people more rights & freedoms - it can only take them away.
In practice, yes they can. In theory, they can't. Lets be practical here.
Posted on 2/12/14 at 2:02 pm to carbola
quote:
With all that said though I have a question for you. If you think that Libertarians should just not care about gay marriage and vote Republican would it be fair to say the same of Christian Right and have them vote Libertarian and stop caring about gay marriage?
Dangt I cant resist.
Yes that would be fair. To summerize what others have said in this thread already, Libertarians on principle should be against govt sanctioned "rights" to gay marriage. Despite what others think govt can be out of the business of sanctioning marriage.
quote:
seems like you are trying to say this in a round about way:
"Look Libertarians, stop voting Libertarian and continue voting Republican because we aren't that different.
No Im not exactly saying this. BTW thank you for actually responding to my posts in a reasonable way.
Im saying that we need more liberty minded candidates and new strategies to produce those winning libertarian candidates. We on the fiscal right are far too many to be letting our country be run like this.
Why are there not more libertarian candidates? Because instead of attracting others to liberty, they put others on the defensive through ridicule and marginalization. They cause people that would otherwise fight for them to become defensive and fight against them. The Libertarian then just gets frustrated and takes his ball to go home.
A Libertarian response to a conservative opposed to gay marriage shouldnt be: "put down your book of fairy tales" but instead should be something like: "I agree that govt shouldnt allowing gay marriage. They shouldnt have to allow any marriage because, as you say, its ultimately God who sanctions marriage. People should be free to live for God or live in sin. Its God's job to turn those from sin not the govt."
Im tired of sitting by and watching the Obamas, Reids, Clintons, Boehners, etc ruin this country. Im not satisfied with knowing at least I came on Political Talk and sounded smart while criticizing them. I want to DEFEAT big government politicians, not get swallowed up by the government monster they are creating.
This post was edited on 2/12/14 at 2:10 pm
Posted on 2/12/14 at 2:08 pm to Mickey Goldmill
quote:It certainly was before Government got involved - expressly to take authority to define and recognize marriage out of the hands of religion. Do a little research.
Marriage has not historically always been just a religious institution.
quote:What rights are not universal now? It's not the rights that are unequal, it's the government perks and privileges.
And right now, not everyone has the exact same rights. That is the problem.
Posted on 2/12/14 at 2:09 pm to bamafan1001
quote:
Fiscal issues matter way more than minute social issues(gay marriage etc)
You cannot have economic freedom without social freedom.
With that said, the Christian right/neo-conservative movement is a joke and as long as the republicans keep pandering to them they will never will never take back the white house.
Posted on 2/12/14 at 2:11 pm to bamafan1001
Religion doesn't own marriage dude. Governments have always been involved with marriage. It is a contract with huge legal ramifications.
Can't you see how a gay couple being told by their state government that they cannot get married would seem like an over-intrusive big government. On the other hand, a government that says "marry any legal adult you wish" would seem less intrusive.
Can't you see how a gay couple being told by their state government that they cannot get married would seem like an over-intrusive big government. On the other hand, a government that says "marry any legal adult you wish" would seem less intrusive.
Posted on 2/12/14 at 2:13 pm to Mickey Goldmill
quote:OK - give me a practical example of freedom that government alone can give. That would never exist without government.
Lets be practical here.
Posted on 2/12/14 at 2:23 pm to Mickey Goldmill
quote:
What is ironic is when "Less Government" Republicans go to the polls to restrict who can get married.
Quick, someone explain to me how government involvement in and recognition of more types of "marriages" = less government.
While you are making your libertarian arguments for gay marriage, remember two things:
1 - Any 2, 12, or 100 people can already get married whenever and wherever they choose. This is (sort of) a free country. The question is whether we officially recognize anything other than traditional marriages.
2 - Traditional marriage has been recognized and rewarded (government recognition/reward, societal approbation, etc) for a REASON. It's not arbitrary, and it can't be replicated by two men.
If you are pro gay marriage but can't explain why traditional marriage was recognized and rewarded in the first place, then you are being thoughtless.
You should probably try to understand WHY government got into the "marriage game" before you tell them to get out of it.
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