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Started By
Message
re: Venial Sin my butt!
Posted on 3/23/24 at 6:59 pm to FooManChoo
Posted on 3/23/24 at 6:59 pm to FooManChoo
God will not punish me because I believe that Dinosaurs ruled the Earth 150 million years ago?
1
Posted on 3/23/24 at 7:04 pm to Champagne
quote:I don't know if He will punish you or not, but if you reject the clear teachings of the Bible and accept the authority of fallible men over God's Word, I suspect you won't be rewarded for that.
God will not punish me because I believe that Dinosaurs ruled the Earth 150 million years ago?
But that wasn't what you said. You said, "How do you debate somebody who believes that God will punish you if you believe in Dinosaurs?"
Your initial statement wasn't about timing, but about the existence of Dinosaurs. I don't deny the existence of dinosaurs, so your initial comment implied that I don't believe they existed, which is a false characterization of what I believe. You are not concerned with my good name but instead are attempting to mock and ridicule me because I seek to give God glory by proclaiming what He teaches in His Word over and against what man teaches. Thus, I call you to repent of your sin of violating the 9th commandment.
Posted on 3/23/24 at 7:12 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Thus, I call you to repent of your sin of violating the 9th commandment.
The 9th commandment, which is “Thou shalt have gang bangs with many goats on my flat earth” is for sure the hardest one to follow.
Posted on 3/23/24 at 7:18 pm to FooManChoo
I'm glad that you gave me the chance to clear up this misunderstanding. My intention is not to mock you or make fun of you because you believe that the Earth is only about 6,000 years old. That is not my intent.
What I want to do is to have you put on the record that your particular Protestant Sect, which has less than 10,000 congregants in the whole USA and NONE in the State of Louisiana, insists that the Earth is only about 6,000 years old.
I want people who read your screeds on this board to know that, so that they can form an intelligent and informed opinion of what you're peddling around here.
Some people are going to mock you for that. Probably not in a post on this message board, because we would like to be polite around here.
Also, Dwight, thanks for clarifying that you believe in Dinosaurs, it's just that they lived no more than 6,000 years ago.
What I want to do is to have you put on the record that your particular Protestant Sect, which has less than 10,000 congregants in the whole USA and NONE in the State of Louisiana, insists that the Earth is only about 6,000 years old.
I want people who read your screeds on this board to know that, so that they can form an intelligent and informed opinion of what you're peddling around here.
Some people are going to mock you for that. Probably not in a post on this message board, because we would like to be polite around here.
Also, Dwight, thanks for clarifying that you believe in Dinosaurs, it's just that they lived no more than 6,000 years ago.
This post was edited on 3/23/24 at 7:41 pm
Posted on 3/23/24 at 7:28 pm to Cheese Grits
quote:
Mortal = you knowing did it
Venial = was accidental
Dude you must not still be Catholic or need some better education
Mortal - is a grave sin that damages your relationship with God
Venial - is a lesser offenses that injure but do not destroy one's relationship with God.
Posted on 3/23/24 at 7:31 pm to Pikes Peak Tiger
quote:
No meat on Friday but gorge yourself on shrimp, crawfish, crabs, fried fish etc. I’m sure Jesus just loves that type of sacrifice in his name.
No meat on Friday is just during lent, and it should be a pennance so you should not be gorging yourself
Posted on 3/23/24 at 7:37 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:
2, 3, 5, and 8 are about belief without evidence
There absolutely is evidence. You just interpret it in a manner that is consistent with your presuppositions. As do I. What evidence, you may ask? Let’s start with the fact that the universe had a beginning- just as Genesis proclaims. Science , in the early 1900’s, confirmed what “unscientific” minds spoke of thousands of years ago. The Kalam Cosmological argument has two premises and a conclusion.
Premise 1- That which begins to exist must have a cause. If you can irrefutably prove this premise wrong, using uniform and repeated experience (aka empirical data), you, sir, are a shoe in for a Nobel Prize.
Premise 2- The universe began to exist. This is especially interesting- as this argument was formulated (by Muslims) before empirical data by sheer reason of the logical impossibility of infinite regress. In short, if there were an infinite number of days preceding today, we couldn’t reach today, without crossing an infinite number of days- which is logically impossible. Time, space , and matter all began to exist simultaneously, in a finite time prior to the present.
Conclusion- The existence of the universe (time, space, and matter) must have a cause. Logic and uniform repeated experience also dictates that this cause must be external to the universe itself. Unless, of course, you can show me an example of something creating itself with no external influence.
As usual, there is much more to respond to in regard to your post. But, for the time being, I will not take the bait (which requires me to dilute my arguments across a variety of topics), and instead focus on following this one argument to its logical conclusion. I predict that it will end in one of two ways: you will either refuse to accept the logical plausibility of my argument, or, we will be forced to agree to disagree. Though, I admit, you rarely fail to surprise me with your ability to perform mental gymnastics in defense of your religious beliefs.
Posted on 3/23/24 at 7:40 pm to Champagne
quote:Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you, but you seem to be backtracking on your posture towards my beliefs regarding what the Bible teaches, saying that you aren't mocking me, yourself, but seem to want to draw even more attention to my position (more than I'm giving it, myself, apparently) so that others will criticize it and even potentially mock me outside of a message board?
I'm glad that you gave me the chance to clear up this misunderstanding. My intention is not to mock you or make fun of you because you believe that the Earth is only about 6,000 years old. That is not my intent.
What I want to do is to have you put on the record that your particular Protestant Sect, which has less than 10,000 congregants in the whole USA and NONE in the State of Louisiana, insists that the Earth is only about 6,000 years old.
I want people who read your screeds on this board to know that, so that they can form an intelligent and informed opinion of what you're peddling around here.
Some people are going to mock you for that. Probably not in a post on this message board, because we would like to be polite around here.
You're acting like I'm absolutely crazy for holding to the view that I do, but not based on the Scriptures, themselves (or even oral tradition, from a Catholic perspective), but purely based on your agreement with secular scientific consensus. If you're going to attack my Christian beliefs, at least provide a Christian defense for your own against mine. Telling me that my belief in the Bible is wrong because secular humanists say so is not the type of argument a professing Christian should be making against another professing Christian.
I find it very difficult to believe that you are not intending to mock me, especially given how you have spoken to me in the past, but since you said you are not intending to mock me, I'll take you at your word.
With that said, I suggest you respond to me with Christian arguments, not attack me for my belief that is entirely consistent with both the Scriptures and church history. The prevailing view of the creation days were that they were either literal 24-hour days or that they were instantaneous, but few early church fathers or anyone really throughout church history believed in a true "old earth" view that evolutionists teach.
By the way, my "particular Protestant Sect" isn't alone in teaching a literal 6-day, 24-hour creation. The Westminster Confession of Faith that my denomination subscribes to along with many other denominations teaches that the earth was created in 6 days, and the 7th day was from the beginning of creation set apart as a sabbath rest day, which is the basis for the Christian Sabbath called the Lord's Day, which is observed on Sunday instead of Saturday. Both of these beliefs are supported by the Scriptures. So this isn't some fringe belief in history as you are trying to make it out to be.
quote:Again, if you would like to make an argument based on the Scriptures regarding the age of the earth, I'd be happy to discuss that with you. So far all you have done is criticize me for holding to an orthodox and biblical position based on nothing more than scientific consensus. You assume the Bible is either untrue or can't have the straight-forward meaning that it does because those who hate God have said so.
Also, Dwight, thanks for clarifying that you believe in Dinosaurs, it's just that they lived no more than 6,000 years ago.
This post was edited on 3/23/24 at 7:44 pm
Posted on 3/23/24 at 9:00 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
FooManChoo
you really need to learn when to stop. it’s your arrogance that’s sinful.
Posted on 3/23/24 at 9:57 pm to Revelator
quote:
Not eating meat on Friday isn't fasting
It's a sacrifice to down a big ole fried seafood platter with a couple of pints of beer though
Posted on 3/23/24 at 10:06 pm to FooManChoo
That's enough, Dwight.
Posted on 3/23/24 at 10:18 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
I'd be curious to get your thoughts on this article
Let me preface my response by requesting that neither of us devolve into the ridiculousness that got the other thread deleted. I hope we can be an example for others, that these type of conversations can be had in a dignified manner.
That said, it is my understanding that the Roman Catholic teaching on the inerrancy of scripture is limited. While I do not agree, for the sake of discussion I will not attempt to argue against the point. I do not see one’s position on either the inerrancy of scripture, nor one’s position on evolution vs creationism as being the basis upon which salvation is lost or attained.
Salvation, according to scripture, is a free gift-
Romans 3:23–24 (NASB95): for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
-that one may accept or reject with the free will endowed by our Creator.
John 12:48 (NASB95): 48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
The main point of contention between RC’s and Pro’s is the ultimate source of authority. With this knowledge, it is clear to me that neither of us has a snowflake’s chance of changing the mind of the other. I am ok with that. Neither of us would be th reason we changed our mind. That honor belongs to the Holy Spirit-
1 Corinthians 3:7 (NASB95): 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.
I’m not even saying you’re wrong. It is my earnest desire that the words of Paul, in 1 Corinthians 9 apply to us all:
1 Corinthians 9:20–22 (NASB95): 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.
When it comes down to the RC/Pro debate, all I see is-
1 Corinthians 3:4–5 (NASB95): 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men?
5 ?What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one.
And it follows that-
1 Corinthians 3:21–23 (NASB95): So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you,
22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you,
23 and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.
Also, I can’t help but mention-
Mark 9:38–40 (NASB95): John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.”
39 But Jesus said, “Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me.
40 “For he who is not against us is ?for us.
Do I believe in evolution? Yes, and no. I absolutely believe in natural selection and adaptation. It is evidenced throughout the earth. It’s not contradictory to Genesis, as God created kinds from which natural selection proceeds. Do I believe that the millions of species of life on this planet originated from a single cell? In just a few billion years? No. Certainly not by random and unguided processes. Am I 100% certain? Meh, no. Could I be wrong? Sure. There are many theistic evolutionists- and they’re all smarter than me. But, I can’t help but think that they value the word of man over the Word of God. Just my opinion. I always go back to
Romans 3:4 (NASB95): May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar,
and
1 Corinthians 2:5 (NASB95): so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
So, I will end by saying that I am not of Apollos. I am not of Paul. I am not of Cephas. I am of Christ. As such, I will test all things by the Word of God. Whatever authority God has given, it absolutely cannot contradict His Word.
If Jesus says that
Mark 10:6 (NASB95): “But from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female.
and scientists say differently, then I say
Romans 3:4 (NASB95): May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar
I love you, brother. May His grace and mercy cover us both, as we diligently seek Him.
Posted on 3/23/24 at 11:22 pm to WinnPtiger
quote:Arrogance implies a high esteem for one's self. I don't think that fits me very well. I'm not here merely to win arguments and push something because I think I'm the greatest (I don't), but am seeking to explain the truth from God's Word so that He--not I--will be glorified.
you really need to learn when to stop. it’s your arrogance that’s sinful.
Can you please explain to me how I am portraying arrogance? Perhaps I can alter my communication style as to not convey that going forward.
Posted on 3/24/24 at 6:58 am to Prodigal Son
quote:
There absolutely is evidence. You just interpret it in a manner that is consistent with your presuppositions. As do I. What evidence, you may ask? Let’s start with the fact that the universe had a beginning- just as Genesis proclaims.
I don’t consider a proclamation that something is true as evidence.
If you want to get real technical, the consensus of scientific scholarship today doesn’t argue that the universe had a beginning. Matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed. The scientific community teaches that the universe is eternal and that the cosmos are currently expanding.
quote:
Premise 1- That which begins to exist must have a cause
Dr. William Lane Craig, that is a fallacy, as matter and energy did not come into existence.
Even if scientific consensus said the universe had a beginning and if your book said that too, even that is not evidence to believe your book. If your book accidentally aligns with scientific theories (like, not guess nor hypotheses, but explanations of the natural world using evidently true facts), it still does not mean your book can be used as evidence on the subject.
Getting real technical, certain parts of the Bible do not state the earth was created. It didn’t have a beginning of existence, but a beginning of order. Take the first couple sentences of Genesis (NRSV) for example:
quote:
1In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, 2the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.
This is Babylonian creation myth, where Marduk defeats the water dragon of chaos (and dies in the process). Marduk is resurrected by his father and proceeds to bring order out of chaos. He uses the slain corpse of the water dragon (called Tiamat, from whence the Hebrew word Tehom comes, and in some versions it is called Rahab) to make the sky by spreading it out like a tent to keep the heavenly waters at bay. Then he blows a great wind over the lower waters to make dry land appear. Adonai in the Bible is attributed to defeated Rahab and for shaping and forming the existing earth in the same process that Marduk used. Would it make sense to say God created (out of nothing or whatever) the heavens and the earth and he created them formless and void and dark? No, that was the starting point. They believed just like the Babylonians that the earth was already in existence, but that it wasn’t arranged properly. Marduk/YHWH brought order out of chaos.
The Canaanites had a very similar creation myth as well. Their water dragon of chaos that their god Baal defeated was named Liatanu. Which water dragon did Adonai defeat? Leviathan. What did the Israelites call their Adonai besides YHWH? They called him Baal, of course!
Posted on 3/24/24 at 8:01 am to catholictigerfan
quote:
I'm far from a evolutionary biologist, but I've read enough to believe it is compatible with the Catholic teaching on how God created the universe.
Bruh
Posted on 3/24/24 at 8:13 am to FooManChoo
quote:
I honestly can't see how evolution can be even remotely compatible with the clear teaching of the Scriptures. Any attempt to make the two fit has to necessarily make "science" the standard over and against the Scriptures.
We agree!
Posted on 3/24/24 at 8:17 am to Champagne
quote:
For the record, I would like to make this post to highlight the fact that Foo says that the Earth is about 6,000 years old. The Holy Bible's book of Genesis is all of the proof that he needs to make this declaration.
The fallacy of circular logic - we know the Bible is the truth because it is Bible, and the Bible says it is the truth.
quote:
No amount of Biology, Geology, Anthropology, Astronomy, Chemistry or Paleology that anybody can cite now, or in the future, will ever shake him from his belief in his declaration.
You are correct.
quote:
Given these facts, do you think you can have a reasoned debate with somebody like this?
You’re right. A reasonable discussion is not possible with that one.
Posted on 3/24/24 at 8:21 am to FooManChoo
quote:
God created man to be herbivores
Posted on 3/24/24 at 8:28 am to Cheese Grits
quote:
This is why need to bring back nuns and corporal punishment!
And some may wonder why so many people often have such a distorted view of God. I went to Catholic schools and endured the Salesian Sisters of perpetual beratement, and it did nothing to draw me to a merciful God, but it did paint a picture of a God who was unattainable and didn’t really like me but endured my existence. Nothing could have been further from the truth. This does nothing to draw people to God who loved us so much that He gave His ONLY Son to sacrifice Him so that we might live. It does however cause people to want to run for the hills, and that is not the point of any of this.
quote:
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. - John 3:17
It’s not just this kind of stuff that distorts the true nature of God in people’s perceptions, but also in how parents, and especially fathers treat their children that creates this distortion. This isn’t just not helpful, but it’s counter productive, and there’s more than enough natural cause and effect to sin in people’s lives to underscore the dangers and damage or sin, and how it destroys our lives and puts distance between us and God. Christ did not come to berate humanity, but to give us a way out of it through HIM.
Posted on 3/24/24 at 8:30 am to TN Tygah
quote:
Thou shalt have gang bangs with many goats on my flat earth” is for sure the hardest one to follow.
Well actually, on the flat earth, the penalty for screwing a goat is death… not only to the goat rapist, but to the goat too.
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