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Message
re: Venial Sin my butt!
Posted on 2/18/24 at 4:24 pm to Liberator
Posted on 2/18/24 at 4:24 pm to Liberator
quote:
Ironic that here you are with a melting post.
Clearly you do not get my dry humor and off beat posting style
My goal is to get folks to think of different views, via different ways of engaging parts of their brain they may be unfamiliar with.
0
Posted on 2/18/24 at 5:03 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:
What are you arguing? That the contradiction isn’t important?
Nothing gets past you!
quote:
It’s important in the sense some allege that the Bible is God’s word inspired by the Holy Spirit. These same people allege that God is perfect, all-knowing, and all-powerful.
Irrelevant to the matter at hand.
quote:
Either none of those attributes are correct, or the Bible isn’t divinely inspired, at a minimum. Why would God inspire imperfection and mistakes?
According to you and Bart Err-man. The truth is, that you have found what you both wanted to find.
quote:
Or here’s an idea: God could actually not harden any hearts and provide a perfect, error-free, contradiction-less set of instructions on how to live that are evidently true.
So here is the truth of the matter. You think you know better than the Creator of the universe. Your incapability to understand the mind of God; or fathom the depths of his eternal plan, has (by design) led you to a fork in the road of your life- trust in Him, or trust in yourself. That aside, I would be willing to bet that if He did exactly what you just said- you’d still reject Him.
quote:
Your argument is particularly weak.
Oh the irony!
quote:
It’s the same argument the Bible makes
Thank you. That’s the nicest thing you’ve ever said to me.
quote:
God has hardened their hearts (not brains/minds ) purposely so that they wouldn’t believe.
While I won’t argue that God never does or did this, I will argue that, at least in your case, it’s not necessary. It may very well be that it has never been necessary, and therefore never been done (by God). For example:
Joe Biden has hardened my heart (towards him). Everything that he does, makes me despise him even more. I hate everything that he stands for; everything that makes him who he is. Every time he opens his mouth- it drives me farther away from him. Just looking at him fills my heart with anger. He wants to destroy everything I love- everything that I take pleasure in. His very existence as the POTUS, threatens my way of life and the future of my children. Joe Biden has hardened my heart.
But, alas, did Joe Biden actually harden my heart? Did he physically and intentionally reach into my soul and change me? Did he somehow subvert my free will, and force me to hate him? Or, do I continue to make a free will decision to despise the destroyer of that which I love?
Now, replace Joe Biden with God, and replace me with yourself (or pharoah, Err-man, Dawkins, etc, etc). See how that works? All it takes, is for God to be God, you to be full of pride and arrogance- and… voilà- your heart is hardened. God, (by His mere existence, coupled with your desire to not allow Him to rule over you) has hardened your heart.
It’s not too late, my friend. As long as there is breath in your lungs- the offer of salvation stands.
Bertrand Russell was found, on his deathbed, rifling through the Bible. When asked what he was doing (as he was a staunch, lifelong atheist), he replied: “Looking for loopholes.” It is rumored that Christopher Hitchens may have made a deathbed conversion. I pray that they both indeed did. Furthermore, I pray that you do not wait until then. It would fill my heart with great joy to see you use your God-given gifts to do the good works that God has planned for you since before the creation of the universe. Until then, I am happy to continue our dialogue- as it serves to strengthen my faith, and hopefully, the faith of others. Good day, my friend.
Posted on 2/18/24 at 5:07 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
FooManChoo
Posted on 2/18/24 at 5:46 pm to Prodigal Son
Works done for your own glory, reputation & gain vs. works done out of love for one another and love for God is what both James and Paul are talking about. It is not possible to work your way to heaven but if you have believe that Jesus is the son of God who lived a perfect life as a man, died to pay your sin debt, rose from the dead so that you too can rise and live with him forever, then you will do good works (fruit) out of love & obedience for Him and love for others. Good works are the fruits of those who are God's people.
Posted on 2/18/24 at 6:22 pm to Liberator
quote:
ONLY the Holy Bible, ONLY its words are legal, and of / from God Himself.
Your problem here is that Martin Luther removed a bunch of books from The Bible. He says that God told him to.
So, in your view, Luther acted as God Himself wanted Luther to act?
The Catechism does not replace the Bible. The Catechism explains what the Bible means. It's just like you at Bible Study telling the others in your group what a Bible passage means to YOU. Except for Catholics, we don't do have individual and different interpretations of what the Bible means. We have what the Catechism says that the Bible means, and that interpretation is final for us.
This post was edited on 2/18/24 at 6:23 pm
Posted on 2/18/24 at 6:41 pm to Cheese Grits
Wow look at the vitriol of the southern baptists
Posted on 2/18/24 at 6:44 pm to Champagne
quote:
Your problem here is that Martin Luther removed a bunch of books from The Bible.
Really?
Which "bunch of books"? (Exactly)
I also reject your entire revisionist premise regarding Luther.
He knew the Papalists and RCCs had overstepped their bounds and betrayed the Holy Spirit and sharing letter of the Gospel message freely.
The RCC Papalists and Clergy committed centuries of heresy by blaspheming & betraying Jesus Christ's Christianity. Luther also noted the Popes had been usurping His Authority by ruling the Roman Empire (Europe) with an iron fist as both Emperor AND Pontiff.
Luther FREED EUROPE!
ONLY then were people free to own and read Bibles.
TRUTH:
UNDER PENALTY OF DEATH, by Official Papal-Catholic Decree (centuries worth) NO person other than CLERGY was allowed to possess a Bible.
quote:
We have what the Catechism says that the Bible means, and [quote]that interpretation is final for us.
Prioritize the Catechisms over (ONLY) the Holy Scriptures and do so at your own risk. "Tradition" are the enemy of Truth.
At the Great Throne I suppose you'll have to look Jesus Christ in the eye and explain it to Him.
Posted on 2/19/24 at 1:01 am to Champagne
quote:You need to define “in” here, because even Cardinal Cajetan—who was an ardent disputer of Luther—didn’t agree that all the deutero books were canonical in the same way Rome eventually decreed them to be. There was disagreement about canonical vs ecclesiastical books for those fifteen hundred years until Rome canonized the books in response to the arguments posed by the Reformers.
Here's what I'm talking about WRT when Luther removed books that were in the Christian Bible for Fifteen Centuries.
This post was edited on 2/19/24 at 1:12 am
Posted on 2/19/24 at 4:08 am to FooManChoo
quote:
You need to define “in” here, because even Cardinal Cajetan—who was an ardent disputer of Luther—didn’t agree that all the deutero books were canonical in the same way Rome eventually decreed them to be. There was disagreement about canonical vs ecclesiastical books for those fifteen hundred years until Rome canonized the books in response to the arguments posed by the Reformers.
This is why sola scriptura is silly.
This post was edited on 2/19/24 at 9:02 am
Posted on 2/19/24 at 4:10 am to Prodigal Son
quote:
Nothing gets past you!
You realize how silly you sound, right?
Posted on 2/19/24 at 9:01 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:Sola scriptura is not silly at all.
This is why sola scriptura is silly.
I’ve got a challenge for you: if oral tradition is equally authoritative for Christians since it was delivered by the Apostles, I would like to see the record of what was actually orally passed down at the time of the death of the last Apostle.
Scripture is easy. There are writings that have a history to them and we can read them and argue about who is right or wrong about their inclusion in the canon and when. We can’t do that with supposed oral tradition.
The best Rome can do is give a list of doctrines and dogmas that have been defined as such by the church centuries or millennia after the Apostles died, many of which we have no historical record that the early church knew anything about, so if those doctrines and dogmas are based on tradition, there needs to be evidence that they were actually handed down. Otherwise you have a standard that can change from day to day based on how corrupt the church leadership has become.
Scripture, on the other hand, doesn’t change.
This post was edited on 2/19/24 at 9:11 am
Posted on 2/19/24 at 9:33 am to FooManChoo
quote:
We can’t do that with supposed oral tradition.
For the people in power that's a feature, not a bug.
Posted on 2/19/24 at 10:11 am to Prodigal Son
quote:quote:Nothing gets past you!
What are you arguing? That the contradiction isn’t important?
PS, you’ve stated on here before that you agree with whatever Foo posts on theology. You differ from him greatly though on contradictions. You acknowledge they exist, and that’s no problem to your faith, which is fine. For Foo though, a contradiction would challenge his faith, as he believes the Bible is the word of God and is inerrant - that no contradictions exist. If the Bible said Jesus went “up” and Jesus went “down” in the same story in different gospels, Foo would argue that down is up, and up is down.
quote:quote:According to you and Bart Err-man. The truth is, that you have found what you both wanted to find.
Either none of those attributes are correct, or the Bible isn’t divinely inspired, at a minimum. Why would God inspire imperfection and mistakes?
Let me tell you why you are wrong. Both Bart and I are interesting in understanding reality, however that may shape up. Look at Bart - he was an evangelical and went to seminary. Bart devoted his life to the Bible because he wanted to. He didn’t find what he wanted. He found that it was all made up and was untrue. From my perspective, I would love to live forever with my loved ones. Who wouldn’t? The problem for me is that I found out what I didn’t want to find out. It sucks, but it is reality.
quote:
Now, replace Joe Biden with God, and replace me with yourself (or pharoah, Err-man, Dawkins, etc, etc). See how that works? All it takes, is for God to be God, you to be full of pride and arrogance- and… voilà- your heart is hardened. God, (by His mere existence, coupled with your desire to not allow Him to rule over you) has hardened your heart.
I read your example and I had to do a little research. Though in most passages about hardened hearts, it is Adonai actively doing the hardening, but in some verses it does appear that the Bible says people can harden their own hearts. Thanks for that - I learned something new.
Posted on 2/19/24 at 10:56 am to Liberator
quote:quote:
Many Protestants including some here are of the incorrect belief that the Catholic Church added some scriptures to the canon very late.
Sorry pal. NOT buying what any Liar-with-an-Agenda atheists or Luciferian is selling. You have no credibility here.
Since you are alleging I’m a liar, why don’t you point out one of my lies that you could prove otherwise with evidence.
Are you insinuating I am lying about Protestants deleting books and verses? This is common knowledge:
Protestants deleted books of the Bible
Accurate Wikipedia article on Protestants deleting Books of the Bible
quote:
There are some demon-possessed Atheists who actually believe they are qualified to make "corrections in the Biblical record".
Statements like this give you the appearance of being a lunatic.
Posted on 2/19/24 at 11:02 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:That is a false statement. Protestants reject that those books were ever part of inspired Scripture, so not including them in the copies of the Bible we have is not “deleting” books of the Bible any more than rejecting the Book of Mormon is deleting a book of the Bible.
Are you insinuating I am lying about Protestants deleting books and verses? This is common knowledge: Protestants deleted books of the Bible Accurate Wikipedia article on Protestants deleting Books of the Bible
Posted on 2/19/24 at 11:05 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:
Accurate Wikipedia article on Protestants deleting Books of the Bible
Not that I am not enjoying reading the back and forth of all you guys on this but I must take offense that Wikipedia is accurate. Since it can be edited, it is suspect. So many links are dead. So much information is based on who has the greatest power.
Case in point : I know an item in the Vatican and know its history and provenance. It is there even to this day as I am not the only one who knows it is there and they to have seen it in person. Does not stop Wikipedia (since almost their inception) to constantly edit the page dealing with this item and changing the true history to a false one.
In the old days you spent dusty times in actual archives with actual documents, doing something call actual research. Folks are lazy and accept the shoddy work of the internet these days.
Don't even get me started on ancestry.com and all the mistakes in their system that are now accepted as fact.
Posted on 2/19/24 at 1:55 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
That is a false statement.
quote:
Protestants reject that those books were ever part of inspired Scripture
Why? Because this one heretic named Martin Luther didn’t like them. That’s the real reason. The excuse he used was that they weren’t a part of the then-current Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) in circulation.
quote:
so not including them in the copies of the Bible we have is not “deleting” books of the Bible
You are so disingenuous, Bill Clinton.
I’m not saying you are anyone ripped out the pages, or applied white out to the books. When they deleted what you would call the “apocrypha”, they simply quit printing those books dispersed in their new canon but moved them to a separate section within the Bible (like the 1611 version of KJV). Later versions quit including them altogether. This can be confirmed by anyone with a pulse with an internet connection.
The truth with a capital “T” is that prior to 1534, every Christian Bible produced for over 1100 years included Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, 1/2 Maccabees, 1/2 Esdras, etc.
quote:
any more than rejecting the Book of Mormon is deleting a book of the Bible.
Was the Book of Mormon printed with the Hebrew Bible for the last 2200 years? No. You are idiotically comparing an apple to an aardvark.
Posted on 2/19/24 at 2:06 pm to Cheese Grits
quote:
I must take offense that Wikipedia is accurate. Since it can be edited, it is suspect.
Cheese Grits, that is precisely why I have you guys another non-wiki link. Did you read it?
Martin Luther moved certain books he didn’t like to a section called “apocrypha” and claimed those books to not be divinely inspired aka not canonical. His reasoning was that they were not part of the Hebrew Masoretic Text. Since the Jews of the time didn’t consider those books canonical, then Christians shouldn’t either. None of those books were ever found in Hebrew, but the earliest copies were in Greek (like in the Septuagint aka LXX). That was his excuse.
Then comes along the published translations of the texts found in Qumran - the Dead Sea scrolls. Every single one of those “apocryphal” books was found there either in Hebrew or Aramaic or both. That at least goes to show that the Essenes (the branch of messianic Judaism that facilitated the creation of Christianity) held all those “apocryphal” books as sacred scriptures… right next to Genesis, Leviticus, and even 1 Enoch.
Side note: there were more copies of 1 Enoch found at Qumran than any other biblical scripture. You can’t understand Christianity without understanding 1 Enoch.
quote:
Case in point : I know an item in the Vatican and know its history and provenance. It is there even to this day as I am not the only one who knows it is there and they to have seen it in person. Does not stop Wikipedia (since almost their inception) to constantly edit the page dealing with this item and changing the true history to a false one.
What is the item?
Posted on 2/19/24 at 2:15 pm to Cheese Grits
quote:
If I knowing ate meat on Friday I got a beating from the nuns.
Child abuse.
Mortal sin.
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