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re: Why do American Christians support Israel?
Posted on 5/18/21 at 2:36 pm to Roger Klarvin
Posted on 5/18/21 at 2:36 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:That's precisely my point. It's not observable.
Of course it hasn’t, why would you expect it to be? This process took over 3 billion years
1
Posted on 5/18/21 at 2:37 pm to 632627
quote:
There’s a reason why the term judeo-Christian exists, but Muslim-Christian does not.
What is that reason?
Posted on 5/18/21 at 2:46 pm to Craig86
quote:
And some people would say that the Jews were the reason that Jesus was crucified.
The Jews, who were living under Roman rule had no legal authority to have anyone killed. They had to convince the Roman magistrates that Jesus was an insurrectionist, and claimed to be king, therefore he was a threat to Rome and Caesar. So in that respect, it would be just as appropriate to say the Romans had Jesus killed.
But since most people don’t hate Romans, but do Jews, the Jews are easier to blame.
Posted on 5/18/21 at 3:17 pm to ShoeBang
quote:Or at all. Let me know when there is a reason to think otherwise.
That we know of.
quote:OK, so let me know when the evidence comes about.
That can be explained by it being way closer to current day than when the Sumerians were flourishing (thus better records to reference), as well as it being against the local rule (Jews) and the Empire of Rome (polytheistic).
Right now, we have poetry vs. claimed first hand accounts.
quote:The disciples of Jesus hung out with him for 3 years, witnessing His miracles and absorbing His teaching only to abandon Him out of fear in His last moments. Those don't sound like the sort of people who just suddenly have a change of heart for no good reason.
Historically, members of counter culture cults often die for their beliefs.
quote:And yet we have written, recorded evidence from proclaimed witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the noted changes in His followers after that supposed event and no such evidence for any other resurrections, only poetic descriptions written who knows how long after the fact.
That we know of. Literacy was even more scarce 10k years ago vs 2k years ago. Just because it wasn't written down, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Many things that are written down as facts never actually happened, were lost or worse, were excluded purposefully - The Book of Enoch for example. Either lost or excluded on purpose.
My point is that all claims aren't equal. There's substantial weight behind the resurrection of Jesus that simply doesn't exist elsewhere.
quote:A bias that exists from the front is the assumption that the Bible is just like any other book or document. Another bias is in the assumption that if a book or document is used for immoral reasons, that the book or document must either not be from God, or must be corrupted in some way.
All I'm saying is that I leave room for religions to be wrong and do not believe any millennia-plus religious book, bible or sacred text can possibly be 100% accurate. Reasoning is that those are and have been used as tools to control people more than help people throughout all of history that we know of.
If, on the other hand, the Bible is the actual word of God, and that the God it describes is real and possesses the attributes that are attributed to Him, then there is good reason to believe that God has not only given us an accurate and true form of revelation, but that He has also preserved it.
The Bible is the best preserved document of antiquity, with thousands of manuscript fragments that provide a result that can be trusted. We don't even blink an eye at some of the documents that are 1,000 years removed or more from their original version with only one or two surviving manuscripts, yet the Bible's authenticity is questioned with the myriad of documents and fragments we have from decades after it was written up to a few hundred years, which isn't a very long time as historical documents go.
quote:I'd agree with you if I believed the Bible was just another attempt by man to come up with their own ideas about God, but if it's actually the revelation of God from God, then it stands alone from all other religious books.
There's probably a god IMO, but I'll wager that he hasn't been clearly defined for human understanding by any religion that has tried thus far.
Posted on 5/18/21 at 3:18 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
but if it's actually the revelation of God from God, then it stands alone from all other religious books.
Agreed, but:
quote:
let me know when the evidence comes about.
Posted on 5/18/21 at 3:48 pm to Revelator
quote:
The Jews, who were living under Roman rule had no legal authority to have anyone killed. They had to convince the Roman magistrates that Jesus was an insurrectionist, and claimed to be king, therefore he was a threat to Rome and Caesar. So in that respect, it would be just as appropriate to say the Romans had Jesus killed. But since most people don’t hate Romans, but do Jews, the Jews are easier to blame.
No doubt Pilate is to blame too, but Jesus Christ himself said they had the greater sin.
Posted on 5/18/21 at 4:05 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
That's precisely my point. It's not observable.
Neither is gravity, but we find demonstrable evidence of its existence all around us. The only difference is you face no meaningful consequences for ignoring the reality of evolution as you would if you did the same with gravity, so you’re free to ignore the reality of evolution. Ignoring gravity causes you to die very quickly, but the evidence for evolution is much greater than that for gravity.
Posted on 5/18/21 at 4:27 pm to FooManChoo
quote:No, it's really not.
Changes in organisms over time is a fact that is observable. Changing from single-celled bacteria to a human being over time has not been observed and its factuality is certainly in question
quote:You can reject it all you want, but that's where we are from.
I, too, reject what is sometimes called "macroevolution", or evolutionary origins of man.
quote:Me too.
I believe the biblical narrative of God creating mankind
quote:So, all the fossils of early humans, Australopithecines, etc. What's your thoughts on those? How old is the Earth?
not through natural processes over a long time, but through a supernatural process over a very short period of time.
Posted on 5/18/21 at 4:44 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Neither is gravity, but we find demonstrable evidence of its existence all around us. The only difference is you face no meaningful consequences for ignoring the reality of evolution as you would if you did the same with gravity, so you’re free to ignore the reality of evolution. Ignoring gravity causes you to die very quickly, but the evidence for evolution is much greater than that for gravity.
Christians believe all humans are in the image of God and should be treated as such. Christians believe in heaven and hell.
Evolution people believe we came from star dust and our ancestors came from fish. Star dust should be able to do what star dust wants to do. There is no morals and no ethics for those who believe in evolution as the bases for our existence. These people have a blind faith and are living in a universe that does not care about them. Their only hope is to borrow from the Christian world view. There is no coherent appeal to reason or the laws of logic apart from the Revelation of God.
The late Athetist…Dr Will Provine on debating Christian Phil Johnson at Stanford university. These are also Darwin’s views as well.
“Modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear. There are no God’s, no purpose, and no goal directed forces of any kind and no life after death. When I die I’m absolutely certain that I’m going to be dead. That’s the end of me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning in life, and no free will for humans either.
This is atheism.
Posted on 5/18/21 at 4:51 pm to ctiger69
quote:
Evolution people believe we came from star dust and our ancestors came from fish.
Are you certain God didn't create us using evolution? Or the universe with the Big Bang?
Posted on 5/18/21 at 5:04 pm to ctiger69
quote:
“Modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear. There are no God’s, no purpose, and no goal directed forces of any kind and no life after death. When I die I’m absolutely certain that I’m going to be dead. That’s the end of me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning in life, and no free will for humans either.
This is atheism.
I agree with this, 100%. The only meaning this life has is the subjective meaning we give it, but because we’re here we might as well make the best of it. The only other option is for us to all kill ourselves, and that just seems like a waste of good neurons to me. This is where I differ from true nihilists. I cannot argue around the fact that under my worldview existence is ultimately meaningless, though.
Now you may ask, assuming we do try and make the best of an otherwise meaningless existence, by what standards do we try and live? That’s. A great question and arguably the fundamental one we’ve been trying to answer for the whole of our existence. It’s the thing that religion was ultimately developed to try and explain, what is our meaning, purpose and duty while here?
The western consensus since the beginning of the enlightenment seems to be that shifts towards minimizing human suffering are what produce the best environment for a thriving civilization of social creatures (and this is the best method of increasing subjective human happiness). I believe the progressively increasing wild successes of western culture over the last 400-500 years is the evidence that this idea has merit, in as much as it has generated the least amount of human suffering ever achieved by any human society.
Now the religious will argue the enlightenment and western culinarily are the products of religion, specifically Christianity, but to me the evidence is clear Christianity was just along for the ride. After all, it is religion that has changed to fit within shifting cultural norms and not the other way around.
Posted on 5/18/21 at 5:08 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:However we can't test historical evolution like we can gravity. We can only interpret that which we find around us, and I can interpret evolution as diversity of creation.
Neither is gravity, but we find demonstrable evidence of its existence all around us.
quote:The evidence for evolution is the same as the evidence for creation and God's word. The evidence isn't at issue, but the interpretation of the evidence, is.
The only difference is you face no meaningful consequences for ignoring the reality of evolution as you would if you did the same with gravity, so you’re free to ignore the reality of evolution. Ignoring gravity causes you to die very quickly, but the evidence for evolution is much greater than that for gravity.
Those who reject God's word in favor of the conclusions of man's fallible reasoning will certainly face meaningful consequences. It's why Christians are to preach the gospel so that they will worship the creator God rather than the creature and be saved from receiving the wages of rebellion and sin.
Posted on 5/18/21 at 5:12 pm to AlxTgr
quote:It is - it is in question. We can go back and forth if you'd like, but it is in question.
No, it's really not.
quote:Likewise, you can reject that God created humanity, but that's where we are from.
You can reject it all you want, but that's where we are from.
quote:For someone who seems to be arguing that we evolved from other creatures rather than being created special by God, you have a strange way of agreeing with the biblical narrative.
Me too.
quote:They were likely either humans or not humans, depending the fossils you're referring to specifically.
So, all the fossils of early humans, Australopithecines, etc. What's your thoughts on those? How old is the Earth?
I don't know how old the earth is exactly, but I believe it to be in the thousands or tens of thousands, not millions or billons of years.
Posted on 5/18/21 at 5:18 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
I don't know how old the earth is exactly, but I believe it to be in the thousands or tens of thousands, not millions or billons of years.
Are you serious?
Posted on 5/18/21 at 5:35 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
but because we’re here we might as well make the best of it.
So it is ok for people to rape and murder to get what they want. Might as well do what you want b/c we are all just star dust. You have no right to tell anyone what they are doing is wrong unless you borrow from the Christian world view.
quote:
The only other option is for us to all kill ourselves, and that just seems like a waste of good neurons to me.
So, what they’re limited to is they can ultimately say, “Well, I feel like that’s wrong.” And so, here’s their ethical system: it’s preference.
So, your preference is you feel like you shouldn’t murder another human being or you shouldn’t steal from this person. So, your preference is, “I don’t like to do that.”
But here’s the thing. You’re not in charge of the guy who does like to kill people, who does like to rape, who does like to steal. You’re not an authority in his life. Your preference has no power and authority in his life.
So, you can’t create an ethical system off of mere preferences. People have different preferences. That’s why we have jails. Because there are lots of people who prefer certain activities and behaviors over others and we know where we put those people. They prefer it. They want to do it.
quote:
A great question and arguably the fundamental one we’ve been trying to answer for the whole of our existence.
Christianity answers this question. Your belief system folds like a cheap deck of cards unless you borrow from the Christian world view.
quote:
The western consensus since the beginning of the enlightenment seems to be that shifts towards minimizing human suffering
And in that case, if you say society determines what is right, what is wrong, and that’s the basis for ethics, then that means anybody who fought against slavery in the United States of America was immoral because society had determined it was fine and okay to capture people as slaves and to enslave them and to use them as human property.
And that means—watch, this is powerful—if society determines what is moral, then that means any society that has a person within it fighting for transformation within society on any level, the person fighting against that society is the immoral one. Why? Because Society has determined—what?— that we can kill Jews, that we can enslave black people, and anybody who argues with it is the immoral one.
Do you see if you say society determines what is moral then you are stuck with society changing morality over time and whatever evil is happening, you cannot war against it because Society has determined it, which means no social transformation to any degree really at any time.
I think there’s actually a lot of human suffering in the world and if we just ended it all, we would end a lot of human suffering. And there are actually a lot of people who think just like that. And you have no argument with them, no objective basis for morality.
quote:
was just along for the ride. After all, it is religion that has changed to fit within shifting cultural norms and not the other way around.
Generalized blank statement. Which religion: Christianity, islam, Judaism, Mormon, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc…. Which one??? I am sure you have taken the time to research each to make such a broad statement.
The Christianity doctrine has not changed. The way to salvation and God’s written word is still the same. There are many Christians that have a false faith and are suppressing the truth and they should not be confused with true believers of God and his word.
Posted on 5/18/21 at 5:37 pm to Mo Jeaux
quote:I am.
Are you serious?
Posted on 5/18/21 at 5:40 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
don't know how old the earth is exactly, but I believe it to be in the thousands or tens of thousands, not millions or billons of years.
Why do you believe that?
Posted on 5/18/21 at 5:46 pm to ctiger69
Societies must impose some sort of standard in order to exist. The only other alternative, as I pointed out, is self destruction. So could a society decide that rape was universally ok? Sure, but it’s tough to see a scenario where that improves societal function. It would in very case represent a net negative towards human society unless we define societal success by its direct correlation with the degree of chaos and and suffering, which is a pointless definition because it will inevitably result in the cessation of human society and the loss of the species given enough time.
So again, objectively, there is no universal good or bad, right or wrong, etc. In practice however, given human society is required to exist for these questions to even be pondered, certain behaviors and actions will inevitably lead towards more or less success within those societies. You see this as borrowing from a Christian worldview only because you believe it is the Christian worldview that established these behaviors as good to begin with. The reality is, certain norms have transcended most societies throughout history because society doesn’t work if everyone thinks everyone else is trying to rape and murder them all the time. In reality, it is you who is co-opting longstanding societal norms and claiming your God made those norms.
So again, objectively, there is no universal good or bad, right or wrong, etc. In practice however, given human society is required to exist for these questions to even be pondered, certain behaviors and actions will inevitably lead towards more or less success within those societies. You see this as borrowing from a Christian worldview only because you believe it is the Christian worldview that established these behaviors as good to begin with. The reality is, certain norms have transcended most societies throughout history because society doesn’t work if everyone thinks everyone else is trying to rape and murder them all the time. In reality, it is you who is co-opting longstanding societal norms and claiming your God made those norms.
This post was edited on 5/18/21 at 5:48 pm
Posted on 5/18/21 at 5:50 pm to Roger Klarvin
And so, the unbeliever is stuck with that: 1) societal convention, 2) personal preference, and 3) one more thing. When the unbeliever says, “Well, I have a basis for ethics: it’s what works to keep us alive.
We’ve determined that if you murder others, then we’re not going to flourish. We’ve determined if you steal from others, we’re not going to flourish. We determined if you rape others, we’re not going to flourish.
What’s the hidden assumption there? The borrowed capital from Christianity: human value and dignity, and that society should flourish. Because we must ask the unbeliever, we must ask them, “Are we Stardust?”
They say, “Oh yes, yes we’re Stardust.”
Well, I’m going to ask you a question. What makes you think Stardust must flourish? What if I want to kerosene the whole anthill? Who are you to argue with me? You’re acting like Stardust should flourish and should produce and should do well.
All you have is preference, societal convention. That’s all you have, and when the unbeliever says, “I think society should flourish,” you should say, “Why should stardust flourish?” and, “Why are you picking this Stardust over this Stardust? Why are you saying that human beings should be the ones that flourish, who are the random results of evolutionary processes, and not dogs and snails and horses? Why aren’t you fighting for them? Why are you fighting for humans? You’re acting like humans are in the image of God.”
We’ve determined that if you murder others, then we’re not going to flourish. We’ve determined if you steal from others, we’re not going to flourish. We determined if you rape others, we’re not going to flourish.
What’s the hidden assumption there? The borrowed capital from Christianity: human value and dignity, and that society should flourish. Because we must ask the unbeliever, we must ask them, “Are we Stardust?”
They say, “Oh yes, yes we’re Stardust.”
Well, I’m going to ask you a question. What makes you think Stardust must flourish? What if I want to kerosene the whole anthill? Who are you to argue with me? You’re acting like Stardust should flourish and should produce and should do well.
All you have is preference, societal convention. That’s all you have, and when the unbeliever says, “I think society should flourish,” you should say, “Why should stardust flourish?” and, “Why are you picking this Stardust over this Stardust? Why are you saying that human beings should be the ones that flourish, who are the random results of evolutionary processes, and not dogs and snails and horses? Why aren’t you fighting for them? Why are you fighting for humans? You’re acting like humans are in the image of God.”
This post was edited on 5/18/21 at 5:51 pm
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