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re: Cant blame jurgy for this one
Posted on 6/21/16 at 11:26 pm to Cap Crunch
Posted on 6/21/16 at 11:26 pm to Cap Crunch
All guys past their primes that are getting chances to play based off their history with their clubs and keeping younger guys from getting a shot. Compared to our talents pool beck n wondo arent much worse than schwein n gomez are to Germanys talent pool. Gomez still puts in goals because he plays in a weaker league but its clear he isnt what he used to be
2
Posted on 6/21/16 at 11:26 pm to John Keating
quote:
I have no way of knowing this but I believe that Klinsmann knew his status as USMNT manager was safe regardless of what happened tonight.
I agree. For better or worse at this point I'm pretty sure Jurgen is safe until after the 2018 WC
Posted on 6/21/16 at 11:27 pm to John Keating
When the US clears or heads a ball, it's either to an empty area or out of bounds. When Argentina does it, it's to each other.
They pass between small spaces, almost every pass is one touch, and it's done accurately.
You can be the strongest and fastest guy on the field and be completely outclassed.
They pass between small spaces, almost every pass is one touch, and it's done accurately.
You can be the strongest and fastest guy on the field and be completely outclassed.
Posted on 6/21/16 at 11:28 pm to SabiDojo
quote:
You need to watch closer. US had the fastest guys on the pitch.
Argentina just has a touch the US doesn't. That's not athleticism, but skill and technique
Exactly. I don't know what the hell people are talking about when they say the U.S. needs to get the "best athletes". Messi wouldn't be successful in any other sport but he's arguably the greatest footballer to ever live. Pure pace doesn't mean anything without dribbling ability, passing, vision, touch, etc...
Posted on 6/21/16 at 11:28 pm to John Keating
quote:
This is not an issue. American soccer players are some of the most athletic soccer players in the world. The world's collective opinion regarding an American soccer player is that he is first and foremost a great athlete. He is also viewed as committed and having an excellent work rate. The concern is almost always a perception regarding the lack of technical ability.
You may not have noticed but Messi is around 5'7" 160 lbs. He would probably be the most unathletic member of the USMNT. However, he can do things with the ball that no American player could think of doing and his vision along with his soccer IQ is what separates him as a player. Sebastian Giovinco is the best player in MLS and he is around 5'6" 150 lbs. Yet he runs circles around most defenders.
The last piece of the puzzle for the USMNT is developing technically skilled players. This takes emphasis and generations to develop. The process is underway in academies across the US.
Couldn't have said it any better. Hopefully we will start seeing some teams full of those players by the time 2022 gets bere
Posted on 6/21/16 at 11:30 pm to sgallo3
You are missing the point. Beckerman and Wondo are no where near the skill level of Schweinsteiger and Gomez. Why play guys that are old and unskilled when you have young guys with much more potential sitting the bench? They'll never develop that way
Posted on 6/21/16 at 11:32 pm to sgallo3
quote:
Exactly. As a coach you still have a responsibility to your vets in big games/tourneys to give them a chance to go gut out a game when you're massive underdogs. More so than the young players that are gonna have their time to shine.
Do people think schweinsteiger and mario gomez are the future of german soccer? No but they still played for germany today. Because thats how these things work. Its not all fifa 16 where u are trying to level up ur wonderkids attributes
Yes and No. As a coach, your job is to put your team in the best position to win - resources, tactics, strategy, etc. Often that means, yes, bringing vets. But rather than just being there to "give them a chance," they are there for three reasons, 1) Give you stability and Reliability 2) Familiarity with players, as most likely they are familiar with more faces on the team 3) Help shepherd/develop younger players.
The chance they have us to bring some continuity to the game, some stability, that can allow other players to flourish. Your vets SHOULD be high IQ guys (simply by default of being at this level for longer) who know the system and know the players around them. I actually don't think bringing Becks was a problem, however, he should have never been in the Argentina game, that's the wrong game for him. Wondo is a massive mistake though.
This post was edited on 6/21/16 at 11:37 pm
Posted on 6/21/16 at 11:37 pm to sgallo3
quote:
Compared to our talents pool beck n wondo arent much worse than schwein n gomez are to Germanys talent pool.
Better CMs than Beckerman:
Feilhaber, Danny Williams, Nguyen, Kljestan, and Diskeruud.
Better forwards than Wondo:
Agudelo, Morris, and Boyd off the top of my head.
Posted on 6/22/16 at 9:16 am to sgallo3
The U.S. does not have one player who would have made Argentina's 23 man roster for this tournament. The U.S. was playing without 3 of its best 11. That is an insurmountable talent gap. The only reason the score wasn't more lopsided is that Argentina did not apply constant offensive pressure. They were content to limit their opportunities to complete breakdowns by the U.S. after going up 2-0.
The U.S. could not gain possession of the ball from Argentina. They could hardly even challenge for possession. When they did gain possession they could not prevent being dispossessed by the first defender, and their passing was panicked. No matter who the U.S. put on the field that game was going to be played over 80% in the U.S. end.
I cringe when I read criticisms of the U.S. game plan that suggest better attacking options. The only valid criticisms should focus on why the U.S. didn't employ a more defensive posture.
The U.S. could not gain possession of the ball from Argentina. They could hardly even challenge for possession. When they did gain possession they could not prevent being dispossessed by the first defender, and their passing was panicked. No matter who the U.S. put on the field that game was going to be played over 80% in the U.S. end.
I cringe when I read criticisms of the U.S. game plan that suggest better attacking options. The only valid criticisms should focus on why the U.S. didn't employ a more defensive posture.
Posted on 6/22/16 at 9:19 am to Poodlebrain
The choice of Wondo and Beckerman is legitimate criticism.
Also, the choice of who is on the 23 man roster is also a legitimate criticism.
But, Poodlebrain, you are exactly correct.
Also, the choice of who is on the 23 man roster is also a legitimate criticism.
But, Poodlebrain, you are exactly correct.
Posted on 6/22/16 at 9:19 am to Poodlebrain
quote:
I cringe when I read criticisms of the U.S. game plan that suggest better attacking options. The only valid criticisms should focus on why the U.S. didn't employ a more defensive posture.
Putting Besler at LB would have done both.
Posted on 6/22/16 at 9:25 am to lynxcat
quote:
The choice of Wondo and Beckerman is legitimate criticism.
I agree... I fault him for going so conservative, with the old vets..
But in the end, we made it the semis and were without three starters... We were outclassed even with them.. Of course it sucks to see your team drummed, but all in all.. not too disappointed..
Posted on 6/22/16 at 9:57 am to lynxcat
quote:It gives people something to bitch about. I could care less about style over substance, but that is what the criticism really comes down to. No matter who the U.S. put on the field in place of Wondo or Beckerman, they were not going to display the individual brilliance to overcome the deficiencies of the other 9 players on the field.
The choice of Wondo and Beckerman is legitimate criticism. Also, the choice of who is on the 23 man roster is also a legitimate criticism.
As for the 23 man roster, you have to realize that the substitutes have more deficiencies as players than your starters. Thus you don't have the luxury of filling out the squad with quality replacements. You have to build the roster with role players. Give Argentina some credit for recognizing the deficiencies of the U.S. regulars, and the greater deficiencies of the replacements, and attacking those deficiencies. The Argentines made the replacements play outside their roles, and they looked completely outclassed. Why does anyone think that the U.S. using different role players would have been able to avoid them being forced to play outside their roles?
Posted on 6/22/16 at 10:08 am to Poodlebrain
quote:
No matter who the U.S. put on the field in place of Wondo or Beckerman, they were not going to display the individual brilliance to overcome the deficiencies of the other 9 players on the field.
We weren't going to win, but choosing those 2 puts you at an even bigger disadvantage. Playing with Wondo was like playing down a man. He didn't belong with what we were trying to do so he was setup to fail. Couple that with his mediocre skill set and you aren't going to get anything positive out of him
quote:
As for the 23 man roster, you have to realize that the substitutes have more deficiencies as players than your starters. Thus you don't have the luxury of filling out the squad with quality replacements. You have to build the roster with role players
Or you build the roster with redundancies so you can stick with a similar gameplan and fill in players with similar skill sets. Not having a backup striker to Wood was a problem (sound familiar) and Beckerman isn't a like for like replacement for Jones which changed the midfield dynamics.
Posted on 6/22/16 at 10:19 am to John Keating
quote:
You may not have noticed but Messi is around 5'7" 160 lbs. He would probably be the most unathletic member of the USMNT.
Messi is stupidly quick and very strong. He's only unathletic by our warped, combine-driven standards
Posted on 6/22/16 at 10:45 am to etm512
quote:Who do you think should have been Plan B for either of them? Name the U.S. players without obvious flaws who you think could have prevented the thrashing we witnessed. Newsflash for you, those players do not exist for the U.S.
Not having a backup striker to Wood was a problem (sound familiar) and Beckerman isn't a like for like replacement for Jones which changed the midfield dynamics.
I'm sorry, but Klinsmann was assembling a squad to deal with how to address specific roles for opponents like Mexico, Columbia and Ecuador. I doubt he was thinking who do I play Argentina without Woods, Jones and Bedoya without a decrease in midfield dynamics? Just advancing far enough to play Argentina in the semis was the best to be expected from any 23 man roster the U.S. assembled.
Posted on 6/22/16 at 10:49 am to Poodlebrain
quote:
Who do you think should have been Plan B for either of them? Name the U.S. players without obvious flaws who you think could have prevented the thrashing we witnessed. Newsflash for you, those players do not exist for the U.S.
You seriously don't think Morris would have done better than Wondolowski? Nagbe, Acosta, Williams, and Kitchen couldn't have done better than Beckerman? Really? At the very least, it would give them experience going forward.
Just because they still wouldn't have won means that we shouldn't even try?
This post was edited on 6/22/16 at 10:52 am
Posted on 6/22/16 at 10:50 am to Poodlebrain
quote:
I'm sorry, but Klinsmann was assembling a squad to deal with how to address specific roles for opponents like Mexico, Columbia and Ecuador.
I'd love to hear how Beckerman and Wondolowski were supposed to help us against Columbia, Mexico, and Ecuador.
Posted on 6/22/16 at 10:53 am to Poodlebrain
quote:
Who do you think should have been Plan B for either of them?
Because shite happens. We saw it in the World Cup. Hell, he knew going into that if you get two yellows in 4 games you get suspended. He's supposed to prepare for things like that.
Posted on 6/22/16 at 11:00 am to Poodlebrain
quote:
I'm sorry, but Klinsmann was assembling a squad to deal with how to address specific roles for opponents like Mexico, Columbia and Ecuador. I doubt he was thinking who do I play Argentina without Woods, Jones and Bedoya without a decrease in midfield dynamics? Just advancing far enough to play Argentina in the semis was the best to be expected from any 23 man roster the U.S. assembled.
There was a fun stat during the game that Argentina had used 18 players in the tournament and the US had used 12. Up to that point. We didn't adjust our lineups THAT much, and Wondo wasn't used to help with Ecuador or Columbia. So why was he there? Seemingly, for Argentina because that's who he played.
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