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Posted on 12/17/10 at 8:46 am to Kunka
quote:
Considering that I have been coaching in the Air Raid for several years now and get to meet each year with other Air Raid coaches from across the country and discuss this offense and exchange ideas I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about
you still haven't made the link between the air raid spread and the spread option. these are 2 very different offensive concepts from 2 very different coaching trees
do principles overlap? yes, but principles have been overlapping in offenses since the dawn of football
just like with the west coast offense. a lot of its principles are in every passing system, but you won't claim the air raid and west coast are the same thing, will you?
Posted on 12/17/10 at 8:49 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
you still haven't made the link between the air raid spread and the spread option
When did I ever attempt to do this?
Posted on 12/17/10 at 9:00 am to Kunka
why won't you do it, mr. expert?
Posted on 12/17/10 at 9:07 am to willow2
I just listened to that interview. 
Would love to see those two in a fist fight.
Would love to see those two in a fist fight.
Posted on 12/17/10 at 9:29 am to Kunka
quote:
When did I ever attempt to do this?
OSU ran a ton of zone-read/spread option this year in its running game, which is NOT "running from the air raid" like you said
Posted on 12/17/10 at 9:39 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
OSU ran a ton of zone-read/spread option this year in its running game, which is NOT "running from the air raid" like you said
Posted on 12/17/10 at 10:32 am to SlowFlowPro
Neither of those plays are Zone "Read" plays. The 1st example is a simple Zone Left running play(it was a straight give to the RB). There is no read to it, if you look at the play again you can clearly see that the QB's head is down and is not reading anyone as it's a straight give.
Your 2nd example is a pure flea flicker all the way as you said.
By the way just for clarity, the zone running game has been around for decades and everyone runs the zone. Pro style type offense's run zone from under center more obviously and if there is a FullBack in the I for example, then it would be a Zone Lead running play. All Spread teams run the Zone and most of them will run some zone read off of it if they trust their QB to make plays with his feet. The zone read was created at Clemson by accident during a practice.
In your 2nd link, Oklahoma St didn't run one Zone Read play. They ran straight zone in every one of those running clips, one of the running plays might have been power (pulling guard) but it's hard to see. Not in any of those clips did you see the QB reading a defensive end and riding the hand off. One can clearly see that they are straight hand offs every time. All they ran was inside zone & outside zone.
Your 2nd example is a pure flea flicker all the way as you said.
By the way just for clarity, the zone running game has been around for decades and everyone runs the zone. Pro style type offense's run zone from under center more obviously and if there is a FullBack in the I for example, then it would be a Zone Lead running play. All Spread teams run the Zone and most of them will run some zone read off of it if they trust their QB to make plays with his feet. The zone read was created at Clemson by accident during a practice.
In your 2nd link, Oklahoma St didn't run one Zone Read play. They ran straight zone in every one of those running clips, one of the running plays might have been power (pulling guard) but it's hard to see. Not in any of those clips did you see the QB reading a defensive end and riding the hand off. One can clearly see that they are straight hand offs every time. All they ran was inside zone & outside zone.
This post was edited on 12/17/10 at 10:46 am
Posted on 12/17/10 at 10:50 am to Kunka
quote:
if you look at the play again you can clearly see that the QB's head is down and is not reading anyone as it's a straight give.
well, the zone-read has become so popular there often isn't much reading going on anymore
this running play is a staple of the spread option offense, which is from an entirely different tree than the air raid
like i said, different principles trickle down and mesh in different philosophies. air raid teams, in some instances, have adopted spread option running plays to balance the offense (because pure air raid has never really worked on a championship level for elite teams. successful teams HAD to adapt)
Posted on 12/17/10 at 11:12 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
well, the zone-read has become so popular there often isn't much reading going on anymore
If there is no reading going on then it is NOT a zone read it is just pure zone. Why can't you just admit that you're wrong? 
quote:
this running play is a staple of the spread option offense, which is from an entirely different tree than the air raid
Yes it is a staple of a spread option offense you are correct. But you are forgetting the fact that the zone read and straight zone blocking scheme is still the exact same thing. The only difference between a straight give and a "read" is that the QB is an extra runner & he is reading the backside DE to see if he crashes down the line toward the direction of the RB or if he goes vertically up field. The offensive line still blocks everything the same way.
The zone read was discovered by an accident at Clemson when they were running an outside zone play & there was a fumble between the QB & RB on the exchange and the Defensive End crashed hard towards the RB that the QB picked up the fumble and kept the ball around end.
quote:
like i said, different principles trickle down and mesh in different philosophies. air raid teams, in some instances, have adopted spread option running plays to balance the offense (because pure air raid has never really worked on a championship level for elite teams. successful teams HAD to adapt)
Good points and I agree with you. The reason it has never worked at the "elite" level is because no one on an elite level has run that offense yet. Although Oklahoma did win a National Championship in 2000 running the Air Raid.
I have and will always believe if you take a school like LSU with the incredible amount of stock piled talent on the roster that if they ever had a offensive minded OC or HC like a Leach, Holgerson, Mumme, etc type coaches that think outside the box the results would be staggering.
This post was edited on 12/17/10 at 11:22 am
Posted on 12/17/10 at 12:15 pm to Kunka
I dont think Leach will be LSU's OC.
Although, BelowPar did say Leach was on top of Les' list.
We will see but I doubt it.
Although, BelowPar did say Leach was on top of Les' list.
We will see but I doubt it.
Posted on 12/17/10 at 1:38 pm to Kunka
quote:
If there is no reading going on then it is NOT a zone read it is just pure zone
however you want to label it, it's a spread option play proliferated by the RR system
quote:
The only difference between a straight give and a "read" is that the QB is an extra runner & he is reading the backside DE to see if he crashes down the line toward the direction of the RB or if he goes vertically up field.
and with so many teams running zone/zone-read plays, the "read" is essentially nothing
we run zone-read at LSU with JLee where he fakes like he still has the ball (sometimes he does keep it). some teams just get lazy with it and don't really push the fake, b/c they know teams don't respect the running ability of the QB (like at OSU last year. the year before they ran the same plays, but had a mobile QB and he'd tuck it every once in a while. UT with colt did as well). it's become the vogue way to deal with non-running QBs. feign interest and then bust them once a game or so.
quote:
because no one on an elite level has run that offense yet
Texas 2007-2009 did, and OU has for a while. OU did win a title with a spread passing game, but they didn't win with their offense
quote:
I have and will always believe if you take a school like LSU with the incredible amount of stock piled talent on the roster
why haven't UT or OU won a title using the offense?
quote:
type coaches that think outside the box
you can't really say this offense is outside the box when so many teams have incorporated elements into their base offense
Posted on 12/17/10 at 2:11 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
OU did win a title with a spread passing game, but they didn't win with their offense
quote:
why haven't UT or OU won a title using the offense?
Not to be argumentative, but name 1 team in the BCS era that has won a national title with their offense? There isn't one.......until 2010. That's 13 years.
Every team that won had a top 10 defense, except for Ohio State in 2002. Their offense was ranked #70.
The only team that had a top 10 offense was Miami in 2001 (#8 offense), but they had the #6 defense in the country.
Texas in 2005 is the only team that had an offense (#3) than was better than their defense (#10).
Defense still wins championships. You don't have to have an elite offense to win, but you must have an elite defense and at least an manageable offense. I believe this year is an aberration and not the beginning of a trend.
Posted on 12/17/10 at 2:29 pm to The Mick
CROWTON the Wizard will return
Guess that means more options to the short side of the field for no gain...great...
Another year of not going to LSU games...
Guess that means more options to the short side of the field for no gain...great...
Another year of not going to LSU games...
Posted on 12/17/10 at 2:52 pm to Kunka
quote:
If there is no reading going on then it is NOT a zone read it is just pure zone. Why can't you just admit that you're wrong?
Dude? A pure zone OFFENSE? Are you for real? Take the can of raid that you've been huffing, put the cap back on it, put it out of the reach of children, and just say NO!
Posted on 12/17/10 at 3:02 pm to sabanisarustedspoke
quote:i think he's just saying that if the QB isn't reading the end squeezing then it's just a running play with zone blocking. not the entire offense just that particular play is "pure zone".
Dude? A pure zone OFFENSE? Are you for real? Take the can of raid that you've been huffing, put the cap back on it, put it out of the reach of children, and just say NO!
Posted on 12/17/10 at 7:05 pm to drexyl
quote:
i think he's just saying that if the QB isn't reading the end squeezing then it's just a running play with zone blocking. not the entire offense just that particular play is "pure zone".
We have a winner Johnny!!
Thank you for reading EXACTLY what I said and having a brain when you read it. 
Posted on 12/17/10 at 7:21 pm to Kunka
quote:
Why can't you just admit that you're wrong?
You're new here aren't you.
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