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re: There is a ton of intellectual dishonesty regarding O
Posted on 12/7/16 at 2:42 pm to Rou Leed
Posted on 12/7/16 at 2:42 pm to Rou Leed
quote:
Ole Miss has not shown the ability to sustain long term success in SEC football in the modern era. They have had alot of peaks and valleys. They have had well respected coaches experience temporary success but it has been fleating and always ends poorly. The culture and structure of Os current situation is much better.
In order to sustain success, you have to gain success in the first place. O couldn't do that where the one before and after him could
This argument has been proven wrong 100xs in this thread. Stop trying to prove it
0
Posted on 12/7/16 at 2:43 pm to TigerFan55555
quote:
I will say this, i kinda agree with the other guy, i dont think he ever was elite. i think it was more of the stars all aligned, he had Jimbo as an OC and Pelini as his DC.. during his prime years.. I think they did 99% of the work.. I think you saw the real Miles in the last 4 years..
I wouldn't disagree, an argument can be made. I just tend to believe that he has it in him, and we've seen flashes over a few years, but Miles has some major flaws that are limited to simply "coaching skill set" that lead to his downfall. Determining whether or not someone is effective in a job beyond pure metrics is difficult, and you have to consider all of the angles.
Ultimately, Les was a poor coach toward his latter LSU years, that much we can all agree. Whether or not he ever was a Top Tier coach is up for debate and I can see arguments for both. And if we were an elite program at one point, well, Les was a big part of that.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 2:47 pm to danfraz
quote:
But he should have NEVER been kept after he was basically publicly fired. Expecting him to change was on the administration, not on Les.
Agree 100% that Les shouldn't have been kept after he was publicly fired. I also love the guy for what he did at LSU but I also believe he deserved to be fired, and not just b/c of the public spectacle.
But why was the expectation of Les changing on the administration once he was retained?
If Les gave a shite about keeping his job and if he actually cared about winning at LSU he had to have the self awareness to realize that there were major problems on O and special teams.
You have the $ to get an innovative OC and the blessing of the admin to go and get someone.
You have the authority to fire BDP.
Yet you do absolutely nothing to address glaring issues.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 2:47 pm to crazy4lsu
He will have all the resources, support, and talent he could ask for to be successful at LSU. I do not think you can honestly say that about his time at Ole Miss.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 2:48 pm to crazy4lsu
Ole Miss is probably, excluding Vandy, the worst team in the SEC over the last 25 years. Their undeniably worst coach in that span is Ed Orgeron.
Our AD had two months to find a suitable replacement for Miles and a limitless budget to conduct that search.
He choose the worst coach in the history of one of the worst modern programs in the SEC as his guy.
Those are all facts...not hyperbole. Think about that for a second.
Our AD had two months to find a suitable replacement for Miles and a limitless budget to conduct that search.
He choose the worst coach in the history of one of the worst modern programs in the SEC as his guy.
Those are all facts...not hyperbole. Think about that for a second.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 2:52 pm to Rou Leed
quote:
He will have all the resources, support, and talent he could ask for to be successful at LSU. I do not think you can honestly say that about his time at Ole Miss.
You work with what you are given. Cutcliffe and Nutt could outperform him by a large margin in those same circumstances. So did Tuberville and Freeze. Why could those coaches succeed (as in post a fricking winning record) and O couldn't?
The reality is that I know more about his time at Ole Miss than most, because one, I remember it, and two, I actually researched the relevant material (the fricking book I mentioned that every LSU fan should read).
If you don't think it is alarming that O's tenure accounts for nearly 40 percent of Ole Miss's losing seasons the last 20 years, then I don't know what to tell you.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 2:53 pm to Rou Leed
quote:
Posted by Rou Leed online on 12/7/16 at 2:47 pm to crazy4lsu He will have all the resources, support, and talent he could ask for to be successful at LSU. I do not think you can honestly say that about his time at Ole Miss.
David cutcliffe disagrees
Houston Nutt disagrees
Hugh freeze disagrees
Posted on 12/7/16 at 3:00 pm to wildtigercat93
Considering 2 out of 3 of those guys got fired, i doubt they would paint a sunny picture of their time at Ole Miss. Again, it would be more relevant if they hadnt seen the guy on the job having success in this decade.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 3:01 pm to Rou Leed
quote:
He will have all the resources, support, and talent he could ask for to be successful at LSU. I do not think you can honestly say that about his time at Ole Miss.
So O is incapable of creating an environment where he has resources? I mean, that's part of negotiation, understanding how to request the kind of things you need to be successful and selling it to an administration.
So he's also unable to build support, either through proven on field success, past success, or in implementing a program that people want to support?
And he also can't bring in appropriate talent, player or coach, without it being in place before he arrives?
Is that the argument? So does Ed Orgeron actually understand what it takes to build a successful program, or does he require the perfect storm where these thing are in place before he arrives?
Does O have a vision, or does he need someone else's vision in place first and then he can function as a head coach?
This post was edited on 12/7/16 at 3:04 pm
Posted on 12/7/16 at 3:02 pm to Rou Leed
quote:
i doubt they would paint a sunny picture of their time at Ole Miss.
What in the living frick are you talking about? The question was how were Cutcliffe and Nutt able to post winning seasons in the same conditions as O?
Posted on 12/7/16 at 3:05 pm to Freauxzen
He was unsuccesful 20 years ago at a place were nobody has been able to have sustained success at the level of USC, UT, Miami, and LSU (places he experienced success).
Posted on 12/7/16 at 3:07 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
I wouldn't disagree, an argument can be made. I just tend to believe that he has it in him, and we've seen flashes over a few years, but Miles has some major flaws that are limited to simply "coaching skill set" that lead to his downfall. Determining whether or not someone is effective in a job beyond pure metrics is difficult, and you have to consider all of the angles.
Ultimately, Les was a poor coach toward his latter LSU years, that much we can all agree. Whether or not he ever was a Top Tier coach is up for debate and I can see arguments for both. And if we were an elite program at one point, well, Les was a big part of that.
i could argue both sides as well, but the Administrator in me says it wasnt him. it was the people he surrounded himself with and what else that was going on in the conference at the time he came in.. Ive had this discussion many times with High School AD's (My Dad is a AD in Texas Most in the coaching circle do not respect miles as a tactician and therefore lose overall respect for him as a football coach, thats how they all measure.. like a How sharp are you way... I believe that Saban built the culture and Miles ran with it his first 3 years... He kept up with the toughness brand that saban instilled.. then when his coordinators left he was exposed.. my dad hated him back in 2008, thats when i started to see it as well.. then the luck of the 2011 season happened and then we get embarrassed at the end...
My dad says the same thing about orgeron, hes met him and LSU is recruiting one of their OL, hes met with him and talked to him a handful of times.. he just doesnt like him.. doesnt think hes very sharp, he says he could name 30 high school head coaches that could coach circles around him... Ill go with my dad on this one..
Posted on 12/7/16 at 3:10 pm to Rou Leed
quote:
He will have all the resources, support, and talent he could ask for to be successful at LSU. I do not think you can honestly say that about his time at Ole Miss.
Success is always relative. Orgeron's success at Ole Miss was worse by comparison to the coaches that came before him and after him.
His success was relatively worse there.
He also began his job as interim at the times he did because both the USC administration and LSU's administration did not want the coaches they were firing to win gimme games and make the decision to fire them harder. Why is that significant? Because it should tell any reasonable person that the interim coach records that result will be inflated by beating the likes of Missouri and Arizona.
The meat of the schedule is what matters for the interim (as much as it can since it still isn't the program of the interim until he's had an offseason to implement his program). Those games were Stanford, UCLA, Notre Dame, Alabama and Florida. Orgeron won one of those five games. Real coaches at real programs get fired, not hired, for those results.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 3:10 pm to Freauxzen
If I was a complete O lover, i would make an argument that his time at Ole Miss lay the foundation for his then assistant to formulate a plan for Ole Miss to experience success. Hugh Freeze. But i have probably posted too much today already and dont have the stomach for it.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 3:18 pm to molsusports
He should receive some credit for beating Ole Miss, Arkansas, and Texas A&M rhis season because the guy he replaced would have lost those games.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 3:31 pm to Rou Leed
quote:
He should receive some credit for beating Ole Miss, Arkansas, and Texas A&M rhis season because the guy he replaced would have lost those games.
You are trying to give Orgeron credit for being better than Miles would have been. There are several problems with that argument:
1) Miles was fired for not being good enough at the end of his tenure
2) You can't make the argument as fact.
3) The facts that we do have indicate Miles would have probably held serve against Florida. He did beat A&M regularly, and neither Arkansas nor Ole Miss were as good this year as the last couple.
I think a betting man would expect LSU would have finished with the same conference record this year if Miles had finished out the year - and there is a pretty strong possibility that he would have finished the year with a better record than Orgeron managed.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 4:08 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
Whether or not Les Miles ever was a Top Tier coach is up for debate
Only by idiots. Les won 1 NC and played for another. He is in an elite class, even before you consider his winning percentage and recruiting. So-- just stop it.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 4:16 pm to beauxroux
quote:
Only by idiots. Les won 1 NC and played for another. He is in an elite class, even before you consider his winning percentage and recruiting. So-- just stop it.
I'm with you, I do think Les was, at one point, an elite coach. However, I can see the arguments against that as well.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 4:24 pm to Rou Leed
quote:
Considering 2 out of 3 of those guys got fired, i doubt they would paint a sunny picture of their time at Ole Miss.
Jesus you're obtuse. The fact is those coaches won a hell of a lot more at Ole Miss than O did so how the frick can you blame ole miss when none of those coaches were as bad as O? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills
quote:
gain, it would be more relevant if they hadnt seen the guy on the job having success in this decade.
There are huge fricking differences between being an interim coach than being a full time coach
Posted on 12/7/16 at 5:24 pm to Hot Carl
quote:
Hot Carl
quote:
3) Though not in love with Jimbo, I got excited about his ability to develop QBs
quote:
2) I REALLY wanted Tom Herman
Does not really matter what you want or wanted. Herman and Jimbo did not want us
After those two turned LSU down it was another coach or coach O
Sorry you do not understand that this needed to be done swiftly, this is a simple concept to understand with recruiting being the most important ingredient for a successful college football program
I agree with you Alleva needs to be fired and sooner the better.
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