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re: Media day starts at 8:45
Posted on 10/1/24 at 9:35 am to supe12sta12z
Posted on 10/1/24 at 9:35 am to supe12sta12z
quote:
Really need Hawkins/Reeves to develop so we can move on from CJ after the season.
Hawkins isn't going to become CJ, and I like Hawkins. Hawkins handle will never be where CJ's is, and CJ can score from anywhere on the court. Tha'ts just not a skill set Hawkins will ever have.
And regardless if CJ starts or comes off the bench, he's critical to our success b/c of his scoring ability. If you lose CJ, then you have to get a 6th man specialist to replace his scoring ability They don't need to score 20+, but they need to have a similar skill set as a scorer.
Norman Powell would be a good replacement. Better defender (as just about anyone would be over CJ) and used to coming off the bench to score. I think Gary Trent Jr could be a good 6th man as well. Not as good of a scorer, but he's a high volume 3 poitn shooter who shoots 39% and is also a good defender.
Tyler Herro would also be a great candidate to come off the bench and score, although probably one of the few guys who's worse defensively than CJ.
Maybe Hawkins can become a good enough scorer to be that 6th man, but that's wishful thinking. If Hawkins was just an average defender, I'd have more hope for him, but he's really really bad defensively. It's one thing to not have the size and ability to be a good defender. It's another when you have no idea how to play team defense, and you have not physical tools to make up for it. CJ and Herro make up for their terrible defense with elite offense. I just don't see Hawkins getting to that level of elite offense. Hawkins at his best is probably more of what Duncan Robinson is, and i don't say that in a negative way.
1
Posted on 10/1/24 at 9:41 am to Dantheman504
quote:
Because CJ is not cheap.
So by your logic you have to bring Herb off of the bench? Trey's contract will be much more similar to CJ's than Herb's. The fact that Herb is on a deal of a contract is what allows you to have CJ on his contract as a super sixth man.
Posted on 10/1/24 at 9:48 am to TeddyPadillac
Disagree. If Murray is what we think he is, CJ will be a luxury. We need high level shooters on cheap contracts who comes off the bench and can spot start if needed.
Posted on 10/1/24 at 10:00 am to supe12sta12z
quote:
Disagree. If Murray is what we think he is, CJ will be a luxury
Murray becoming a scorer will replace BI, as we are assuming BI is going to get traded.
You lose CJ, and you're down to having one perimeter guy who can create his own shot in Dejounte, and that's it, and that's not ideal. Zion isn't a threat to shoot from anywhere but at the basket. You have to have guys that can create shots from other spots on the court, and break down the defense.
There isn't another guy on the roster that can create an opportunity for himself or a teammate, except maybe Jose and we shoudl not be relying on him to do that.
If BI goes, and Murray takes that scoring/creating role, great.
IF CJ then goes, his scoring/creating has to be replaced, and Trey isn't that replacement, and neither is Hawkins. Neither have the handle necessary to do what CJ does. They both are elite at spreading the floor, but what good does that do you if no one can take advantage of the open floor? You have to have that secondary perimeter playmaker.
Posted on 10/1/24 at 10:11 am to TeddyPadillac
Yea still luxury at his salary, between Murray, Zion, and Jose, we have guys who can create and they can even add to the roster for much cheaper while using CJ's contract to bring in another guy. We need to stop fricking around and start our young wings.
Posted on 10/1/24 at 10:13 am to supe12sta12z
quote:
We need to stop fricking around and start our young wings.
wings? as in plural?
Who are you wanting to start?
Posted on 10/1/24 at 10:54 am to supe12sta12z
I think some of you are confusing what some of us are saying about CJ starting as if that's something we think should actually happen.
I think the overwhelming majority of people here feel Herb should start no matter what, and also that Trey should be a starter.
The reality is that until BI AND, big and there, CJ are moved, Trey is very unlikely to start. That doesn't mean that's what i want to happen, just that the reality is that it's extremely unlikely Willie benches CJ and starts Trey.
And Trey is playing 30mpg and hasn't been in the conversation of 6th man of the year, although Jose has been in that conversation finishing 6th in voting last year even though he only played 18mpg and also missed 26 games.
Trey had plenty of opportunities to up his game this year, starting in 23 of his 57 games played. He averaged 16.3/6.3/2.6 on 39% 3 point shooting when he started.
In the 34 games off the bench he averaged 13.8/4.0/1.9 on 37% 3 point shooting. Really wasn't that big of a difference despite playing in place of BI most of those times.
We were playing without a 20PPG guy, but Trey wasn't the guy making up for the missing points. Not saying Trey should have averaged 30ppg, but upping your ppg by 2.5 points starting in place of BI when he was hurt wasn't a big jump.
CJ averaged 27ppg in the 12 game span at the end of the season when BI was hurt. Trey averaged 17.
CJ's averaged increased by 9 ppg, Trey's by 3ppg.
The decision to start Trey over CJ would be a lot easier, as well as taken a lot better by CJ, if Trey would have earned that spot over him, but CJ literally supplanted himself as the better player this past year when Trey had his opportunity to start. Starting Trey over CJ after what CJ did last year just wouldn't be a good look at all, and it won't be until Trey shows that he deserves to start over CJ on the court. CJ is playing some of the best ball of his career right now. He may sit to start this season b/c of Murray/Herb/BI starting, but he's not coming off the bench so Trey can start. He's just not.
I think the overwhelming majority of people here feel Herb should start no matter what, and also that Trey should be a starter.
The reality is that until BI AND, big and there, CJ are moved, Trey is very unlikely to start. That doesn't mean that's what i want to happen, just that the reality is that it's extremely unlikely Willie benches CJ and starts Trey.
And Trey is playing 30mpg and hasn't been in the conversation of 6th man of the year, although Jose has been in that conversation finishing 6th in voting last year even though he only played 18mpg and also missed 26 games.
Trey had plenty of opportunities to up his game this year, starting in 23 of his 57 games played. He averaged 16.3/6.3/2.6 on 39% 3 point shooting when he started.
In the 34 games off the bench he averaged 13.8/4.0/1.9 on 37% 3 point shooting. Really wasn't that big of a difference despite playing in place of BI most of those times.
We were playing without a 20PPG guy, but Trey wasn't the guy making up for the missing points. Not saying Trey should have averaged 30ppg, but upping your ppg by 2.5 points starting in place of BI when he was hurt wasn't a big jump.
CJ averaged 27ppg in the 12 game span at the end of the season when BI was hurt. Trey averaged 17.
CJ's averaged increased by 9 ppg, Trey's by 3ppg.
The decision to start Trey over CJ would be a lot easier, as well as taken a lot better by CJ, if Trey would have earned that spot over him, but CJ literally supplanted himself as the better player this past year when Trey had his opportunity to start. Starting Trey over CJ after what CJ did last year just wouldn't be a good look at all, and it won't be until Trey shows that he deserves to start over CJ on the court. CJ is playing some of the best ball of his career right now. He may sit to start this season b/c of Murray/Herb/BI starting, but he's not coming off the bench so Trey can start. He's just not.
Posted on 10/1/24 at 11:05 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:When we needed it most when BI went out late in the season, in the 10 games before BI's return, Trey went for 19 and 7 with 3 assists per game on 47% from the field and 42% from 3...
Trey had plenty of opportunities to up his game this year,
We don't maximize what he can do. In the past, you can argue that made sense. But with BI now basically being the past as we know he won't be here long term, it's just dumb to not maximize what Trey can do for this team in favor of BI. And for what...the hope of maybe perhaps we can extract just a tiny bit more value for a BI trade that may never even happen at all?
quote:For Trey's career, he's 48% from the field and 41% from 3 when he starts. 42% and 37% off the bench.
tarting in 23 of his 57 games played. He averaged 16.3/6.3/2.6 on 39% 3 point shooting when he started.
In the 34 games off the bench he averaged 13.8/4.0/1.9 on 37% 3 point shooting. Really wasn't that big of a difference despite playing in place of BI most of those times.
quote:Trey went off when BI was hurt at the end of the year.
but upping your ppg by 2.5 points starting in place of BI when he was hurt wasn't a big jump.
Posted on 10/1/24 at 11:22 am to shel311
quote:
Trey went off when BI was hurt at the end of the year.
NO. CJ went off when BI was hurt at the end of the year.
Are you purposely ignoring the fact that he scored 27ppg in that 12 game span compared to Trey's 17?
and you want to know a fun stat. When Trey made 4+ threes in a game, we were 16-2. He did that 10 times as a starter. I'm not of the belief Trey shouldn't start. I'm just explianing to all of you why he's not goign to start over CJ. You can disagree all you want, but he's not starting over CJ, simple as that.
I fear we are going to lose one of them by the end of this year. Trey needs to start, and everyone knows that, but CJ is playing too good to not start. Neither will be happy coming off the bench, especially once Trey signs his extension. It sucks, but we are going to have to make a decision on one of them. You just can't have a 4th guy making $30M/yr, and he's coming off the bench. The obvious answer should be to trade CJ, but the organization doesn't want to do that to him b/c of what he's done since he's arrived. There just isn't a solution that both CJ and Trey can be happy with, and you're going to piss off one of them.
Posted on 10/1/24 at 11:29 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:YES...
NO
n the 10 games before BI's return, Trey went for 19 and 7 with 3 assists per game on 47% from the field and 42% from 3...
quote:I'm not ignoring anything. I'm not comparing Trey to CJ. I'm talking about Trey, so CJ's numbers are not relevant to my statement.
CJ went off when BI was hurt at the end of the year.
Are you purposely ignoring the fact that he scored 27ppg in that 12 game span
quote:I'm not asking him to start over CJ.
I'm just explianing to all of you why he's not goign to start over CJ. You can disagree all you want, but he's not starting over CJ, simple as that.
quote:This is why Trey needs start and BI off the bench. Who cares about BI's feeling, he won't be here much longer. I care about Trey, and Trey can and should start for this team.
I fear we are going to lose one of them by the end of this year
Posted on 10/1/24 at 11:35 am to shel311
quote:
I'm not asking him to start over CJ.
ok.....
quote:
This is why Trey needs start and BI off the bench. Who cares about BI's feeling, he won't be here much longer. I care about Trey, and Trey can and should start for this team.
ok Explain to me who the starting 5 is with the current roster.
Then assume BI is traded for a 5, and also explain to me who the starting 5 is.
and i'm not going to entertain the stupidity of BI coming off the bench. If you want to do that, then you might as well tell him to not even show up to practice today or any other day and just wait to be traded.
Try to form your opinions based on reality. In no scenario is BI not starting.
Posted on 10/1/24 at 11:44 am to TeddyPadillac
We are getting close to the season...
Posted on 10/1/24 at 11:50 am to ThePistol
quote:
So by your logic you have to bring Herb off of the bench?
No. Herb starts and Trey comes off the bench.
Partial because Jose/ Hawk/ Trey makes a lot more sense than Jose/ Hawk/ CJ.
You cant have CJ as a "super 6th man".
We are at 124mil salary for next year with (6) players.
- not indluding salary from BI trade
- not including Trey's 25+
If we take back Claxton and sign Trey then we are at 175mil easily with 8 players.
You don't just keep CJ making 30mil to come off the bench knowing all that information.
The brutal truth is that the reason it hasn't happened is because neither Trey or Hawk have proved they can handle his spot.
If Trey starts going off and Hawk is legit then CJ might be gone sooner than later.
This post was edited on 10/1/24 at 12:04 pm
Posted on 10/1/24 at 12:03 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
Murray becoming a scorer will replace BI, as we are assuming BI is going to get traded.
You lose CJ, and you're down to having one perimeter guy who can create his own shot in Dejounte, and that's it, and that's not ideal
If Zion is healthy and Murray is a real PG then we don't need many "shot creators".
Worst case scenario you bring in a cheap vet PG and roll with Jose at backup SG.
Murray/ vet PG
Herb/ Jose
And then you'd still get whatever players that are acquired from CJ/ Hawk trade. Or Hawk ends up being good. And this would just mean more volume from Jose/ Herb/ Trey which I don't think anyone hates.
Either way that problem can be solved with a vet PG and vet SG on small contracts IMO.
Posted on 10/1/24 at 12:47 pm to ThePistol
quote:
We know that we can only start one of BI and Trey moving forward
Really? Thanks for the info Coach. Pels arguably have the most switchable players in the NBA. Your math ain't mathin ....
Player (Positions)
DJ --> (1 and 2)
CJ --> (2 and 1)
TM3 --> (2,3,4,5)
Herb --> (2,3,4)
BI --> (2,3,4)
Z --> (1,3,4,5)
240 player minutes in a game ....TM3 can start at the 2,3,4 or 5 position.
Posted on 10/1/24 at 1:07 pm to Pistol44
quote:
Pistol44
quote:
ThePistol
We have duel
Posted on 10/1/24 at 1:21 pm to Pistol44
quote:
TM3 --> (2,3,4,5)
Herb --> (2,3,4)
So in your fantasy world Trey is a more versatile defender than Herb? Sounds like a one heck of a make believe land.
Seriously, you are talking about what is possible (even if in reality Herb is a much more versatile defender than Trey), not what is optimal. You don't want to start a guy at a position he might be capable of defending at times. I'm not saying that Brandon and Trey aren't capable of starting together on any team but on a team that wants to start DM, Herb, and Zion it is not possible to start both long term. I think most understand that.
Posted on 10/1/24 at 1:30 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:I'm discussing what should happen
Try to form your opinions based on reality
If you want to have a different discussion about what may happen, feel free to do so.
Just know, that "reality" will appease the guy on his way out and further make the relationship worse for the guy we want long term So think about that "reality" and how absurd it is.
This post was edited on 10/1/24 at 1:31 pm
Posted on 10/1/24 at 1:32 pm to Pistol44
quote:Murphy cannot start at the 5.
TM3 can start at the 2,3,4 or 5 position.
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