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re: Most effective way to play Zion and BI together
Posted on 4/3/23 at 9:49 am to ghost2most
Posted on 4/3/23 at 9:49 am to ghost2most
quote:
Nothing needs to go through him. yeah, no.
He’s not wrong. Zion needs to green light to run the offense off of a defensive board, when he gets the offensive rebound, with the second unit and when the initial actions fail.
Other than that use his other talents-like rebounding and being big to accentuate the flow of offense that doesn’t upset the flow of CJ Jonas and Trey.
Great players make others better, this is his chance to fit in.
This post was edited on 4/3/23 at 9:51 am
1
Posted on 4/3/23 at 9:50 am to ghost2most
I would have 2 offenses.
1st 43 minutes I use BI as the primary ball handler and do alot of motion offense with JV/Nance setting screens to get the big out of the paint and try to get Z a free run to the basket for BI to hit him.
Last 5 minutes Z is primary ballhandler playing the 5 spot for us, surround him with Trey, CJ, BI and JRich and run heavy P&R action with Z and BI giving Z the option to have 4-3 point shooters to kick out to while teams not having the ability to double Z otherwise they’ll leave a shooter wide open
1st 43 minutes I use BI as the primary ball handler and do alot of motion offense with JV/Nance setting screens to get the big out of the paint and try to get Z a free run to the basket for BI to hit him.
Last 5 minutes Z is primary ballhandler playing the 5 spot for us, surround him with Trey, CJ, BI and JRich and run heavy P&R action with Z and BI giving Z the option to have 4-3 point shooters to kick out to while teams not having the ability to double Z otherwise they’ll leave a shooter wide open
Posted on 4/3/23 at 9:59 am to TigerinATL
quote:
But they need practice time they won't have to set up plays like that,
yep. its a huge challenge for the coaches.
Posted on 4/3/23 at 10:03 am to TigerinATL
quote:
What you seem to be doing is forgetting that Point Zion was the primary offense when they rose to the #1 seed in the West. One of my favorite Point Zion plays wasn't even really a play. It was Zion with the ball at the 3 point line with Trey to either side of him about 15 feet away. Zion had learned just how much he needed to move to suck in the defense before he could kick it to Trey for an open 3.
Agree 100%
I'm not opposed to that... although what I was saying in an open forum was simply don't mess really with what we have going on right now. Insert a guy that is capable of adding to what is happening during this momentum/season ending run.... instead of reverting back to something they were doing pre-christmas when the league was more laxed and guys weren't playing hard.
Things have ratcheded up... the remaining games are pretty much "playoff games" minus games when you play @Port and they sit all their players and @Den when they sit Joker....
During these times, coaches will attack teams differently and expose them... pretty much saying "beat us another way"... so to be able to have that Point Zion style of offense as another adjustment they could pull would be great, but they shouldn't run back to it.
Especially in a 7 game series.
Posted on 4/3/23 at 10:03 am to mhasen1
quote:This
I'm not worried about Zion and Ingram being able to play off of each other.
Small sample size, sure. But in 240 minutes together this season, Zion/BI on court together are +14.2 net rating.
You can go back 2 years, we had a shitty team, they were still +2.4 on court together on a much larger sample size.
Posted on 4/3/23 at 10:05 am to ThanosIsADemocrat
quote:
He’s not wrong. Zion needs to green light to run the offense off of a defensive board,
Most if not all NBA players have this freedom.
with an 8 second backcourt violation and the uptempo style of play I don't think many bigs have to look for their direct outlet as much anymore to start the break...
Posted on 4/3/23 at 10:07 am to shel311
Favorable schedule to close too right?
SAC
MEMPH
NY
@MIN
Having 3 of those 4 at home will be huge! I feel like MINN has fallen off and lost momentum.
SAC
MEMPH
NY
@MIN
Having 3 of those 4 at home will be huge! I feel like MINN has fallen off and lost momentum.
Posted on 4/3/23 at 10:08 am to longhorn22
I mostly just don't want to see what we saw to open the year when they kept forcing it to Zion in the post.
That's not where he's at his best.
That's not where he's at his best.
Posted on 4/3/23 at 10:10 am to ghost2most
quote:Also, the way to do it is less facilitating from CJ, so Zion is taking playmaking from CJ, not BI.
Most effective way to play Zion and BI together
It's funny cause people lose their shite about how I'm sooooo pro-CJ but my biggest season long bet I made for NBA is the under on CJ's points per game. Obviously injuries are making that bet iffy, but when healthy Zion and BI should be running shite with CJ off ball, so the most effective CJ should be averaging about 17ppg in 43-45% from 3, just standing and shooting the ball. And then doing playmaking in bench lineups when he's either by himself or with only 1 of BI/Zion and splitting duties just a bit.
Posted on 4/3/23 at 10:15 am to ghost2most
quote:
That's not where he's at his best.
Agree...
He may develop that as he matures.... but he does not have that consistent level of play from the post yet that can be run through him.
This current state of his career he benefits a team by doing what he does best and that is simple just being a presence and out muscling and hustling those around him.
It's not a sexy thing to say, but when he does it.... it's something that separates him from other guys without the amount of talent he has.
Posted on 4/3/23 at 10:20 am to ghost2most
quote:Yea, that was the very, very beginning of the year.
I mostly just don't want to see what we saw to open the year when they kept forcing it to Zion in the post.
That's not where he's at his best.
But our offense was at its absolute best, top 5 ranked in the NBA when we ran point Zion. It would be really unwise to not go back to that at all if/when he returns.
Posted on 4/3/23 at 10:21 am to longhorn22
quote:The offense is at its best when it runs through Zion facilitating from the perimeter.
He may develop that as he matures.... but he does not have that consistent level of play from the post yet that can be run through him.
Posted on 4/3/23 at 10:23 am to shel311
Anyone have the stats on CJ catch and shoot vs off the dribble 3s?
He occasionally hits that step back but he's lethal when he just takes the kick out.
He occasionally hits that step back but he's lethal when he just takes the kick out.
Posted on 4/3/23 at 10:27 am to Soggymoss
What's with all the divisiveness? Zion has proven to be able to play both on ball and off ball at an elite level. Whatever we need, he'll provide.
Posted on 4/3/23 at 10:48 am to ghost2most
You run a shotgun approach in that you throw everything at teams. Point Zion, Point BI, CJ running traditional sets, Herb occasionally so things off ball can develop. Honestly we would do best being fast and getting in transition if Zion has enough stamina.
Trey, CJ, and BI gives you 3 40% 3 point shooters. Good luck packing the paint or switching on pick and rolls.
Trey, CJ, and BI gives you 3 40% 3 point shooters. Good luck packing the paint or switching on pick and rolls.
Posted on 4/3/23 at 10:51 am to ghost2most
Really should not be complicated, 60% of the offense should be off BI/Zion action. Both BI and Zion need to improve off ball when they are not in action together because the ball handler will invariably get doubled. BI handles the double by passing over (skip passes) and through the defense while Zion is elite at busting the double setting up a 5-on-3. I would just rather not see shooters (TM3/CJ in particular) stationary in the corner just to keep the lane clear.
*Lets get this Dub over SAC first
*Lets get this Dub over SAC first
This post was edited on 4/3/23 at 10:52 am
Posted on 4/3/23 at 11:01 am to Pistol44
Fully healthy, I think our only weaknesses are:
- Athletic big rim protector
- A bench shooter
And the biggest...coaching.
With an elite coach, we have so many options. I don't trust Willie yet. Hopefully, Griff realizes this and we make some staff upgrades to the assistants.
- Athletic big rim protector
- A bench shooter
And the biggest...coaching.
With an elite coach, we have so many options. I don't trust Willie yet. Hopefully, Griff realizes this and we make some staff upgrades to the assistants.
Posted on 4/3/23 at 11:21 am to ghost2most
quote:
Fully healthy, I think our only weaknesses are: - Athletic big rim protector - A bench shooter And the biggest...coaching.
Pels biggest weakness is health. For sure an athletic big and shooting need to be acquired. I'm holding out hope for Hayes as he fills the pivot hole perfectly and he's already integrated with the team. Just don't know if Coach Green will ever trust him. The shooting is not dire since they've moved CJ more off-ball but would like to acquire another shooter through the draft.
In regards to Coach Green, I am a big supporter, although he makes some headscratchers and hasn't shown a penchant to adapt quickly. I attribute this to his lack of experience as an HC, however, he seems to have the reins on a young team and is an elite motivator, so hopefully, both he and the team can grow together.
As far as developmental coaches I love Spoon (On and Off-Court contributions). Three areas that need to improve are offensive coordination, they need a sharp mind to anticipate and stay ahead of Zion and BI's development, someone who can develop their Bigs, and most critical in my opinion, strength and conditioning, particularly off-season work.
This post was edited on 4/3/23 at 11:23 am
Posted on 4/3/23 at 11:27 am to ghost2most
quote:
Anyone have the stats on CJ catch and shoot vs off the dribble 3s?
He occasionally hits that step back but he's lethal when he just takes the kick out.
CJ C&S/OTD 3% past few yrs.
22-23 40.9% / 36.6%
21-22 43.1% / 35.0%
20-21 47.6% / 36.7%
19-20 46.0% / 30.8%
And fwiw: he's basically our best OTD 3-pt shooter by far.
Trey shoots 95% his 3s on C&S so not much to compare.
BI never needs to shoot a OTD 3-pt shot, his #s:
22-23 42.7% / 34.1%
21-22 data was missing for some reason
20-21 43.2% / 30.2%
19-20 42.0% / 27.9%
Edit: CJ's "problem" is that he usually shoots just as many OR MORE of his 3s OTD...with this roster, especially when Zion returns, he needs to go to less OTD and more C&S
This post was edited on 4/3/23 at 11:44 am
Posted on 4/3/23 at 11:44 am to Dinky Mulberry
quote:People think we don't shoot enough 3s now...move CJ to the bench and reduce his minutes, and see how much worse that'll get
And fwiw: he's basically our best OTD 3-pt shooter by far.
He's the only guy on our entire roster who can get himself a 3 without any help, when we should have at least 3 of those dudes.
quote:As the 3rd option, correct. But as the 1st or 2nd option, on a team with no other guys who can get their own 3, it's kinda necessary.
Edit: CJ's "problem" is that he usually shoots just as many OR MORE of his 3s OTD...with this roster, especially when Zion returns, he needs to go to less OTD and more C&S
This post was edited on 4/3/23 at 11:45 am
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