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re: Omer Asik ain't pretty but
Posted on 12/5/14 at 6:43 pm to PrimeTime Money
Posted on 12/5/14 at 6:43 pm to PrimeTime Money
Is a team scoring a lot of points because they have an amazing offense? Or is a team scoring a lot of points because they are playing at a very fast pace which means more possessions which means more chances to score?
PPG doesn't tell you that.
It's like an individual scoring 40 points in a game. Is it impressive if he took 60 shots to score 40 points? Of course not.
Attempts matter. Possessions matter.
PPG doesn't tell you that.
It's like an individual scoring 40 points in a game. Is it impressive if he took 60 shots to score 40 points? Of course not.
Attempts matter. Possessions matter.
1
Posted on 12/5/14 at 6:45 pm to PrimeTime Money
We can never tell if he's the best troll ever or just completely opposite of conventional wisdom when it comes to basketball philosophy.
Posted on 12/5/14 at 6:53 pm to TigerinATL
So he's known for not accepting advanced stats?
Posted on 12/5/14 at 7:06 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
So he's known for not accepting advanced stats?
No, I don't care for them. It's my experience that you can take any set of statistics and manipulate them to fit your argument. Let's take you for instance, it's your contention that Asik is a better and more important player than Harden. So you show that the offense it just as good without Harden, but the defense suffered without Asik. So Asik must be the key guy. You backed it up with numbers, so why wouldn't I accept that? You laid it all out for me and got a couple of buddies to pile on to mock me. But as hard as I try, I cannot believe that the best player on the Rockets that year was Asik. I'm glad you got other guys to believe it. I guess it'll be cool when Asik gets a max deal, cause that is how good he is.. right? I mean he is better than James Harden, who is a top 5 or 6 player in the league. Want to trade us straight up for him? Asik for Harden? Heck I'll throw in any other player you want except Davis.. your choice..
Posted on 12/5/14 at 7:12 pm to landrywasbeast30
quote:
Carlisle started doing this with Dirk to play more with bench guys the last couple years cause the talent on their roster wasn't that great.
Exactly
quote:
Babbitt is useless playing with backups. With backups, he can't create his own shot, and has no one to protect him on defense
Exactly. All the backups are in the same boat of needing help. They do have shooters, but that's all Babbitt, Jimmer, and Salmons can do. And Rivers can't do anything right now. Playing them together is lunacy.
They really need more guys with good vision and passing ability. Evans might be the best mix of both on the team and that's scary considering their two best weapons need to be fed the ball.
Posted on 12/5/14 at 8:23 pm to brmark70816
quote:I never said Asik was a better player than Harden.
No, I don't care for them. It's my experience that you can take any set of statistics and manipulate them to fit your argument. Let's take you for instance, it's your contention that Asik is a better and more important player than Harden. So you show that the offense it just as good without Harden, but the defense suffered without Asik. So Asik must be the key guy. You backed it up with numbers, so why wouldn't I accept that? You laid it all out for me and got a couple of buddies to pile on to mock me. But as hard as I try, I cannot believe that the best player on the Rockets that year was Asik. I'm glad you got other guys to believe it. I guess it'll be cool when Asik gets a max deal, cause that is how good he is.. right? I mean he is better than James Harden, who is a top 5 or 6 player in the league. Want to trade us straight up for him? Asik for Harden? Heck I'll throw in any other player you want except Davis.. your choice..
I said he was arguably more important to the team because he made such a big impact on the defensive end, and that is where the Rockets were lacking big-time.
The Rockets had plenty of offense with or without Harden.
They would win many more games with Harden than without because Harden is a go-to guy who can score points even when the offense struggles. He is a guy who you can go-to to pull out a very tight game in the end.
Asik was the only one who played defense. My point was to show you that without Asik, the Rockets were one of the worst defensive teams. And with him on the court, he single-handedly made them a top 10 defense.
It would be nearly impossible to win many games with the 28th ranked defense in the league.
I can tell you for a fact having watched every single Rockets game that year that the team struggled way more when Asik went to the bench than when Harden went to the bench.
Posted on 12/5/14 at 8:29 pm to brmark70816
quote:And by the way... there is no manipulation with defensive efficiency and offensive efficiency. Think of it as the similar FG%.
It's my experience that you can take any set of statistics and manipulate them to fit your argument.
Field goal percentage is X number of shots made out of X number of shots taken.
Offensive efficiency is simply X number of points made out of X number of possessions.
It's a very basic stat.
Team A might play a slower half-court game and score 90 points per game on 90 possessions per game.
Team B might play a faster uptempo style and score 90 points per game on 100 possessions per game.
That means Team A is better offensively. They score more often every time they touch the ball on offense than Team B does every time they get the ball.
Posted on 12/5/14 at 9:37 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
I said he was arguably more important to the team because he made such a big impact on the defensive end, and that is where the Rockets were lacking big-time.
No, you didn't. I could go back and pull all of your quotes. You said he was the most important player and the reason the team got in the playoffs. You haven't said anything positive about Harden and you seem to go out of your way to diminish him. Until now..
My issue is every time Asik's name comes up, you Houston guys jump over here to his defense. You rave about how awesome he is and anchored your team to the playoffs (almost giving him all the credit). How we must not be using him right and its a shame cause we'd dominate if we feature him more. Its all the coaches fault and you guys take such glee in it. I just see through it. It wasn't enough to rape us on the trade, now you get to rub it in..
quote:
It would be nearly impossible to win many games with the 28th ranked defense in the league.
I'm honestly confused about what you are trying to show now. Did you guys have a good offense that year? What was it top 5? 10? If you had a "mid pack" defense and a top 5 offense, why would you end up out of the top 10 in total record (tied with 3 teams for 11th)?
I'm not going to jump on your train. I get the statistical measures. You can stop trying to justify them. You are going way out of your way to prove a point that doesn't need to be proved. You just said that if you lead the league in scoring that doesn't mean you have a good offense. How can I argue that?
Posted on 12/5/14 at 10:16 pm to brmark70816
quote:Please do.
No, you didn't. I could go back and pull all of your quotes.
quote:I'm not giving him all the credit. I'm saying that in my opinion he was more of a key to the 2012 team's success than Harden was. The Rockets had nobody behind Asik. Motiejunas was a rookie. Jones was a rookie. Greg Smith was terrible.
My issue is every time Asik's name comes up, you Houston guys jump over here to his defense. You rave about how awesome he is and anchored your team to the playoffs (almost giving him all the credit). How we must not be using him right and its a shame cause we'd dominate if we feature him more. Its all the coaches fault and you guys take such glee in it. I just see through it. It wasn't enough to rape us on the trade, now you get to rub it in..
Asik was the only guy down low who could defend and rebound.
Without Asik, the team would have a huge, gigantic gaping hole.
Asik by himself was able to keep the defense from being terrible.
quote:Their offense was 6th and their defense was 16th.
I'm honestly confused about what you are trying to show now. Did you guys have a good offense that year? What was it top 5? 10? If you had a "mid pack" defense and a top 5 offense, why would you end up out of the top 10 in total record (tied with 3 teams for 11th)?
From NBA.com:
Offensive rating: 106.7
Defensive rating: 103.5
Net rating: +3.3 (9th)
And they finished 11th record-wise. Pretty close.
And there are other measures to judge defense. Here is another:
Opponent's Field Goal Percentage: Rockets held their opponents to 45.4% (16th)
Once again, middle of the pack.
quote:You can. Another example... the Rockets led the league in 3-pointers made a couple years back. But they were actually not a great 3-point shooting team. I believe they were about 20th in 3-point percentage.
You just said that if you lead the league in scoring that doesn't mean you have a good offense.
The reason they made so many 3-pointers is because they attempted way more than any other team in the league.
So they led the league in 3's, yet they weren't actually all that good at 3's.
Get it?
Posted on 12/5/14 at 10:36 pm to TigerinATL
Omer Asik is beautiful. You shut your mouth @TigerinATL
Posted on 12/5/14 at 10:46 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
I'm not giving him all the credit. I'm saying that in my opinion he was more of a key to the 2012 team's success than Harden was.
Fair enough, let's go from there. I get your point. Your front court sucked, but it sucked less cause you had Asik. He was a one man show and you appreciate what he did. I still don't get why two years later, you are still so protective of him when your team couldn't wait to get rid of him. I don't go on Celtics boards telling them how awesome M. Thornton was a couple of season ago an how they should feature him more or let him play to his "strengths". But to each their own..
quote:
Get it?
I got it from the beginning. I'm not sure why you kept going. I had no doubt you could somehow show that Houston had a great defense because of Asik.
I'm glad you felt the responsibility to show me how I judge or analyze team performance is inherently wrong. I've just been looking at the wrong data. Just because a team that scores a lot, doesn't mean they are good at scoring. Or if a team holds a team to less points, they are good at defense. I need to look deeper. I'll do that from now on..
Posted on 12/5/14 at 11:02 pm to TigerinATL
hmmmm...
70 posts and 4 pages on an omer asik thread.
Let me guess...rocketards?
70 posts and 4 pages on an omer asik thread.
Let me guess...rocketards?
Posted on 12/5/14 at 11:23 pm to cgrand
actually its the rocket fan defending omer asik and the pelican fan saying he aint that good as the rocket fan is making it sound...
Posted on 12/5/14 at 11:43 pm to brmark70816
quote:Because he was such a solid player who is underrated by people like you who don't realize what he brings to a team. He's a workhorse type of player that coaches love. He hustles and does the hard physical work.
I still don't get why two years later, you are still so protective of him when your team couldn't wait to get rid of him.
And the Rockets didn't get rid of him because he sucked. They only got rid of him because they were able to land Dwight Howard.
They didn't get Dwight Howard specifically to replace Asik. They had been chasing Dwight Howard for 2 years and were finally able to get him. It was nothing against Asik, Howard is a star player who happens to play Asik's position.
The starting center position wasn't really a position of need for the Rockets. Dwight Howard just fell into their lap and he happens to play the same position as Asik.
It's like if the Pelicans were able to land Chris Paul in free agency. It's nothing against Jrue Holiday... Chris Paul is just a better player.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 1:24 am to PrimeTime Money
quote:
Because he was such a solid player who is underrated by people like you who don't realize what he brings to a team. He's a workhorse type of player that coaches love. He hustles and does the hard physical work.
No offense, but that is just a lame response. I know what he does, but it's not enough. Its certainly not worth the praise you heap on him (or the money he makes). You and others give him this pass, but yet you tear down other players because they have holes in their game. Guys that are paid much less and contribute more. You justify it by saying he hustles or does the hard work. It's just an excuse. I attack Evans all the time for not being to shoot. Why wouldn't I attack Asik for not being able to catch a basketball? But I should excuse him from basic basketball play because he tries really hard?
quote:
It's like if the Pelicans were able to land Chris Paul in free agency. It's nothing against Jrue Holiday... Chris Paul is just a better player.
There you go, another point of contention. You know what we would do if we landed Paul. We would move Holiday to SG. Holiday would be thrilled that we added a future HOF and would move his arse over. That simple. He wouldn't stage a protest, demand a trade or pout on the end of the bench. I know all this, cause he is already playing with three boneheads that mess his game already (Rivers, Gordon and Evans). So not a great example.
They got rid of him because he was expensive, didn't fit and they got a better player. Plus he threw a hissy fit. I actually really admire Morey that he was able to do it. As I said, I thought they were going to be stuck with him or have to package a pick to get rid of him (ala Lin). Admit it, didn't you figure that was how it was going to end up? I know you rejoiced when the Pelicans stepped up and bailed you guys out. You figured Carmello was in the bag..
Posted on 12/6/14 at 9:22 am to PrimeTime Money
quote:
PrimeTime Money
you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.
valient effort though
Posted on 12/6/14 at 9:30 am to brmark70816
quote:
You and others give him this pass, but yet you tear down other players because they have holes in their game.
You're crazy if you think Aminu is even close to the level of Asik. First there's the spacing difference between the positions that no offensive skill brings that I already pointed out. There's also the defender hiding difference, teams could hide their worst wing defender on Aminu which we did see, you're not going to hide a poor defending guard on Asik.
On top of that the stats tell a completely different story.
Aminu's on/off numbers last year with the Pels the defense gave up 110.2 per 100 possessions with Aminu on the court and 109.6 when he was off the court. The defense was worse when he was on the court by 0.6 points. Asik makes the defense 8.3 points better (it was 11.2 before Tuesday nights debacle). The 2 players are not even close to comparable on their impact to the game, and you may think I'm bringing out voodoo economics to prove it, but you're literally the only person that thinks that.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 9:35 am to TigerinATL
He's not Marc Gasol. Do not want.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 10:05 am to TigerinATL
It is an interesting comparison you bring up.
No one in their right mind thinks Aminu, a shaky wing, is on the level of a dominant rebounding and dominant rim protecting center.
Yet, Asik has flaws. Aminu has more flaws that are tougher to deal with, as you rightly point out. Good coaching can mitigate those flaws though. If they misused Asik (hard hedging 25 feet from the rim routinely, post ups, high post touches, etc) the way they did with Aminu we should all be going nuts.
Aminu is not a starting caliber wing. He is not a traditional 3. He has the offensive game of a PF, not a SF, and that needs to be considered when entering him into a game.
He is Cunningham, a rotation wing that can rebound and play some defense. Aminu did play well with Anderson, which is important on this roster. They didn't need to keep him and he might not have even wanted to come back. It's not "Woe is me! The Pels are doomed because they let Aminu walk." It's more that they didn't recognize the value (however small one may deem it) a player in his mold brings.
That they didn't understand his role after 3 years, and the importance of someone playing that role with this roster, is a damning indictment of the brain trust.
No one in their right mind thinks Aminu, a shaky wing, is on the level of a dominant rebounding and dominant rim protecting center.
Yet, Asik has flaws. Aminu has more flaws that are tougher to deal with, as you rightly point out. Good coaching can mitigate those flaws though. If they misused Asik (hard hedging 25 feet from the rim routinely, post ups, high post touches, etc) the way they did with Aminu we should all be going nuts.
Aminu is not a starting caliber wing. He is not a traditional 3. He has the offensive game of a PF, not a SF, and that needs to be considered when entering him into a game.
He is Cunningham, a rotation wing that can rebound and play some defense. Aminu did play well with Anderson, which is important on this roster. They didn't need to keep him and he might not have even wanted to come back. It's not "Woe is me! The Pels are doomed because they let Aminu walk." It's more that they didn't recognize the value (however small one may deem it) a player in his mold brings.
That they didn't understand his role after 3 years, and the importance of someone playing that role with this roster, is a damning indictment of the brain trust.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 10:14 am to corndeaux
The problem was and still is, we never had a SF good enough to start and play ahead of him. People hated him because they judged him as a SF. That blinded them to the fact that he would be great on our second team with Anderson. Perfect skill sets for Off/Def switching at the 3 and 4.
He is paid like a backup, too.
He is paid like a backup, too.
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