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re: Are "human rights" a real thing and why should I care?
Posted on 2/11/26 at 2:50 pm to BrodyDad
Posted on 2/11/26 at 2:50 pm to BrodyDad
quote:
I am sure some think I am wrong, but from an ultra- conservative viewpoint, why should I care?
Rights establish & define some level of agreed upon ways of going about things. No matter the source, there is a certain level of order required to avoid lawless chaos & have polite society as you know it. A certain level of agreement upon fundamental things.
Think about the words you just used to lay out your question. Now imagine if every single poster here had their own personal definition of each of those words, what concept they represented etc. Communication would be impossible.
What it comes down to is somebody at some point in time sacked up, drew a line in the sand, and decided to stand for something in particular. With enough time & common agreement it became a standard, a "right."
1
Posted on 2/11/26 at 2:52 pm to Bigdawgb
quote:
Now imagine if every single poster here had their own personal definition of each of those words
Without an unchaging foundation from which we derive our morals, this is exactly what you get in practice.
Posted on 2/11/26 at 2:53 pm to GRTiger
quote:
quote:
Many a righteous follower of God has seen her rights stripped away,
Not the ones endowed by God.
quote:
from government
It sounds like this is who you believe grants you your rights.
Certainly their is no issue with them taking them away in your view.
Whether I have issues with it or not is about as germane as my having issue with grass being mostly green. It is indeed green so my opinion on the matter is of very low value....and government either grants rights or takes them away, and there is not a lot an individual can do either way other than bitch about and hope for the best. This is simply a fact of life my friend, regardless of God's role man can strip away the rights of one another on a whim and God has never done a damned thing to stand in the way that we are aware of....and certainly ain't done a damned thing most of the time. I know you like to imagine yourself as some sort of righteous, self reliant rugged individual but any right you enjoy is subject to the whim of the government. You may be rewarded in heaven, the jury is out, but here on earth you are a subject whose very existence is only possible because the government hasn't decided you no longer should....
Posted on 2/11/26 at 2:56 pm to AwgustaDawg
Your biggest mistake was assuming I would agree that a woman's "right" to kill her unborn child is a right endowed by God. I don't even think that is a right, which is ultimately the point. If rights are determined by the strongest, then you don't actually have "rights." More like temporary privilege.
I already see why we won't come to an agreement. As usual, it's a premise thing.
I already see why we won't come to an agreement. As usual, it's a premise thing.
Posted on 2/11/26 at 3:00 pm to GRTiger
Well most people I know and that you likely know depending on where you live have a magazine full of representatives and one in the pipe that guarantee that right for them.
Posted on 2/11/26 at 3:03 pm to DaleGribblesMower
Yep. Which is why if rights are endowed by man, they are only as valid as either your ability to defend them, or a government's benevolence.
If everyone lived as Jesus commands, we wouldn't need a government or even a constitution.
If everyone lived as Jesus commands, we wouldn't need a government or even a constitution.
Posted on 2/11/26 at 3:14 pm to GRTiger
quote:
Your biggest mistake was assuming I would agree that a woman's "right" to kill her unborn child is a right endowed by God. I don't even think that is a right, which is ultimately the point. If rights are determined by the strongest, then you don't actually have "rights." More like temporary privilege.
I already see why we won't come to an agreement. As usual, it's a premise thing.
It would seem as if God was without much interest in abortion given that god has done naught about it that we are aware of. I may be wrong though but it is entirely possible a woman can have an abortion, ask for forgiveness from God and if she is sincere it will be forgiven, no? So again, seems to have little concern over the act itself outside of the need for the woman to ask for forgiveness. Therefore it is logical to assume God cares naught for "rights" and only for individuals asking for forgiveness. In fact it seems to fly in the face of Christian and most theological teachings to think God is overly concerned with the doings of man in life OUTSIDE of asking for forgiveness. Again, I ain't a christian but I have some idea what christian theology teaches and it is pretty clear that God doesn't often intervene in the doings of man. Absolves god of all manner of ill shite.....
Rights are granted only by the humans with the ability to strip them from you. If a person murders you, and it happens all too often, they have stripped you of every right you could possibly have ever thought you had because they were able to do so. Governments are much more capable of doing so. Again, I don't like that anymore than I like the sky being blue, both are simply facts that everyone has to deal with whether they like it or not.
Posted on 2/11/26 at 3:20 pm to AwgustaDawg
"Right" in this context has no definition unless endowed by an unchanging authority.
I just noticed who I am speaking to, so I'll let you have the last word on it.
I just noticed who I am speaking to, so I'll let you have the last word on it.
Posted on 2/11/26 at 3:24 pm to AUgryphon
quote:
The OP raised an interesting idea, intentionally or not. Is there such a thing as human rights apart from a cultural agreement. Meaning, did God establish human rights that he will judge us based on (among other things)? I'm not sure I have a confident answer. I very much believe God established morality, but I don't think "human rights" is a special moral category. Maybe it is. Definitely gives me something to think about.
Like, can I imagine a society that is godly where you don't have the right to speak in public at all? Everyone has to be silent in public spaces. It's a weird scenario, but it tests the limits of what I think about human rights and how they relate to God and general morality.
Morality has naught to do with God or religion. It is possible for a person to have the highest level of moral consciousness and never heard of a God. It is pretty normal in fact.
As far as I know an individual can be the meanest, non-caring cruel bastard that ever shat between a pair of brogans and seek redemption, mean it, and in almost all theological theories be redeemed by any number of Gods. If that is so then whatever Gods there may be they are completely unconcerned about the day to day doings of man and only about man asking for redemption. Therefore morality and human rights or any right for that matter source is not a god but the person or group with the power to strip another or a another group of whatever rights they may have been granted or allowed by the more powerful group. Test this theory in the United States. Go into a crowded theater that is not on fire, start hollering it is on fire and the government may possibly chastise you for expressing your right to free speech....which you have inherently through no permission from anyone, it is the consequences of you exercising it that will prove problematic. I have the right to shoot and kill someone because I do not like their looks...if the person can't stop me and no one else does I granted myself the right to strip that person of their right to their self. I will most likely find that the government strips me or whatever rights they have allowed me. God will most likely be indifferent in the matter unless I ask for forgiveness and mean it and then they will forgive my sin.
Posted on 2/11/26 at 3:27 pm to TigerintheNO
quote:
I agree with Jefferson. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
I agree with Locke... Property.
Anywho. Take that short list, yours or mine, and stack it up against what passes for "Human Rights" as the world understands and accepts them today.
Here is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights from the United Nations.
Posted on 2/11/26 at 3:34 pm to BrodyDad
quote:
As it stands, I care about protecting the rights of Judeo-Christians worldwide and especially those in the U.S. That is it. If China wants to treat their people like garbage, I cant work myself up to care.
You sound like the exact kind of person Jesus is condemning w/the story of the Good Samaritan.
Posted on 2/11/26 at 3:34 pm to JiminyCricket
quote:
Are rights in general a real thing at all? One has to decide if rights are a real thing first before establishing what our opinions of them and their enforcement should be.
They are not. They are nice philosophical constructions that certainly lead to better human lives, if honored. But Mao had it right. "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." The pro rights natural law crowd will tell you that even a right violated is still a right. OK. How useful is that? There is power and lack of power. That's it. At this moment in America, the people with power do still believe in some rights some of the time.
This post was edited on 2/11/26 at 3:38 pm
Posted on 2/11/26 at 3:36 pm to SallysHuman
quote:
unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
The problem here is that you can be alienated from the enjoyment of all of those rights relatively easily.
Posted on 2/11/26 at 3:40 pm to SallysHuman
negative rights.
Posted on 2/11/26 at 3:42 pm to Tigerlaff
I think the intent was that without everyone agreeing with those words, the rest of it doesn't actually matter.
The founders intended good, God fearing Christians to inhabit and run this country. It's all bullshite when we become just another Godless, morally relativistic shithole.
The founders intended good, God fearing Christians to inhabit and run this country. It's all bullshite when we become just another Godless, morally relativistic shithole.
Posted on 2/11/26 at 3:46 pm to GRTiger
quote:
If you have faith, God grants rights and and is the authority on what is right and wrong.
God clearly doesn’t intervene to protect anyone’s rights.
quote:
If you are not, I don't know where rights and morals come from
For better or worse, they come from fallible men.
quote:
I guess you enjoy any right you can obtain or instill by force or violence, and morality is determined by the strongest individuals.
I think you can have morality (on a societal and/or individual level) without being the strongest. You definitely need strength to defend rights, though.
Posted on 2/11/26 at 3:50 pm to BrodyDad
Big time... that's why every year I donate to the Human Fund!
Posted on 2/11/26 at 3:58 pm to AwgustaDawg
quote:
It is possible for a person to have the highest level of moral consciousness and never heard of a God. It is pretty normal in fact.
So every person has the innate understanding of an absolute moral code?
Can we discuss how that may have happened?
Posted on 2/11/26 at 4:03 pm to AwgustaDawg
Inalienable rights are described in the founding documents. In the United States, certain rights are not allowed to be taken away by our government. It’s why we are different from the rest of the world.
Posted on 2/11/26 at 4:05 pm to BrodyDad
There’s a lot of dumb people here and a lot of bad people here. You’re dumb and bad which is a rarer breed
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