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Message
1
Posted on 7/30/14 at 4:51 pm to Mo Jeaux
quote:
No. I must have missed that one.
he was criticized. i defended him. that's how i got inserted into this thread and it blew up
Posted on 7/30/14 at 4:53 pm to CptBengal
I like how you said "not necessarily"
She might be a moron too. She might also be scared of getting raped. Just like SFP is scared of getting falsely accused.
She might be a moron too. She might also be scared of getting raped. Just like SFP is scared of getting falsely accused.
Posted on 7/30/14 at 4:56 pm to Winkface
ever since fricking facebook blew up in 2005, the term "stalk" has become far to loosey goosey
Posted on 7/30/14 at 4:57 pm to CptBengal
quote:
giving consent because you're annoyed or he's persistent or you don't want to hurt his feelings is STILL GIVING CONSENT.
I never said anything about the hypothetical person giving consent. I said not fighting back. I never said she said yes. I never said she was annoyed and said "okay screw me". I said flat out.. saying no, being pushed over and over until you just go silent and lie there. Almost exactly the same thing the Liz described except it sounds like she didn't say anything at all and disassociated from the entire act.
Unless you say yes and make moves on your own to participate in sex, you are not giving consent. Lying there silently after already expressing that you do not want to do it several times is not consent. It's a person in a vulnerable situation giving up on her firm no's. This is extremely common with young girls who don't have experience and confidence to do what we think is the "right thing".
Not everyone fights back. It's unfortunate, but it's a reality.
Hypothetically, like so many men in here have said they would do, I'd love to say I'd kick the guy square in the balls and tell him to frick off. But it doesn't mean it's what all women do.
I've done nothing in this thread but repeat over and over that I think the lies and the regret and ruining a guy's life due to your own uncertainty is WRONG.
I might even see why if a girl does not fight back, she may not find the need to press charges. I see why Liz did not. I can see where one might blame themselves just like many others would when you silently take it instead of fighting back.
I think I've done a pretty damned good job at showing I 100000% understand the point many men are making and I fully support that. If you don't see it that way, then maybe you don't see what plenty of people in this thread have seen because plenty have agreed with points I've made and plenty have seen me acknowledge the risk for men here over and over.
The only derivation from my hypothetical and Liz's awful experience is that in my hypothetical (1) the male speaks to the female first, gets a no, keeping pushing, and decides to go for it when he is finally met with silence rather than a firm no and (2) they have a previous relationship with one another (friends, boyfriend, whatever) instead of being complete strangers.
Do I necessarily think the guy is a dangerous rapist on the loose? Meh. Not really. But plenty of women consider that rape (never said I personally did) and I completely understand WHY they would identify it as such. I understand the argument that rape is not a matter of opinion, and that may be the case, but with stories where the lines are blurred and there is no clear defense against it yet to clear consent, the definition gets murkier when it comes to pressing charges. As it should. Ultimately taking every woman's rape claim as 10000% truth and convicting a man is not the right way to go.
But saying the woman should have been more careful or that she implied she wanted sex by inviting him over is dangerous.
I think it's totally possible for something to be sexually forceful/assault without being the big scary R word that everyone is trying so desperately to define.
If you think I'm a feminazi lunatic, you don't know me very well. (Duh, since we're on the internet) If anything, I've always been the one to bring up the other side of the coin in conversations with more feminist-minded women.
This post was edited on 7/30/14 at 5:13 pm
Posted on 7/30/14 at 5:03 pm to LouisianaLady
quote:
Unless you say yes and make moves on your own to participate in sex, you are not giving consent.
This doesn't work in the real world.
Posted on 7/30/14 at 5:05 pm to LouisianaLady
A situation like that is what happened to one of my friends' sisters. And it was her boyfriend.
She just froze. Didn't know what to do.
She said it was rape, but it was never brought to law officials.
I hope my daughter will be able to fight mentally and physically if something like this ever happened.
She just froze. Didn't know what to do.
She said it was rape, but it was never brought to law officials.
I hope my daughter will be able to fight mentally and physically if something like this ever happened.
Posted on 7/30/14 at 5:11 pm to Pectus
If parents and schools would stop fearing education about healthy sexual relationships, we could teach young girls how to properly give consent/properly defend themselves.. and we could teach young men how to look for consent and enthusiasm. With both working together, the question of consent wouldn't be so cloudy.
Young girls are hardly taught anything other than "don't have sex" and "boys are mean" while their daddy cleans his gun and tells her she can't date until she's 30.. and young boys are taught even less. It's not exactly common practice for young boys to be taught about respect and consent from their parents or teachers. I don't know if that's because it wasn't a social problem until the last 20 years or what..
Young girls are hardly taught anything other than "don't have sex" and "boys are mean" while their daddy cleans his gun and tells her she can't date until she's 30.. and young boys are taught even less. It's not exactly common practice for young boys to be taught about respect and consent from their parents or teachers. I don't know if that's because it wasn't a social problem until the last 20 years or what..
Posted on 7/30/14 at 5:16 pm to SlowFlowPro
Damn. Facebook has been around that long?
Posted on 7/30/14 at 5:22 pm to LouisianaLady
I understand a lot of what LL is saying. The problem with rape (besides the rape part 
) is that we know when an intruder breaks into a home, and holds a weapon to the victim and forces themselves onto/into them, it is CLEARLY rape, and we are all very comfortable with who the victim is in this case.
But there are an infinite number of situations that fall into a horribly grey area. What I went through raised questions on here, as it should have. I say "rape" and people say "charges"? It is understandable. If an atrocity is committed against you, you seek justice, right? But, because of the very nature of this crime, and the perceptions and personal judgments, the definition, while legal, still has a seemingly individual meaning. She feels she was raped, he says no way. In other countries, women are raped and it is part of the culture and no one bats an eye. This topic is so touchy, one where our society asks what the victim did to provoke the attack. This is completely legitimate. If it were always the man breaking into the bedroom of a sleeping woman, there would be no discussion. But what if they are friends? What if they were drinking? Was there flirtation? All of these factors justifiably come into play. And because it involves sex, if there is no sign of violence, then you just have one person's word against another's and some fluids. Intent of either party is a very difficult thing to ascertain.
The way I look at my experience, at the end of it all - it was sex. Forced and unwanted, but sex. I wasn't harmed physically. He's a POS, but I don't want him to have any further power over me. I won't let it destroy my sexuality or my mental and emotional health. Maybe this is a very detached way to cope, but it is my way to move forward.
TLDR - Be careful who you surround yourself with, and who you bang.
) is that we know when an intruder breaks into a home, and holds a weapon to the victim and forces themselves onto/into them, it is CLEARLY rape, and we are all very comfortable with who the victim is in this case. But there are an infinite number of situations that fall into a horribly grey area. What I went through raised questions on here, as it should have. I say "rape" and people say "charges"? It is understandable. If an atrocity is committed against you, you seek justice, right? But, because of the very nature of this crime, and the perceptions and personal judgments, the definition, while legal, still has a seemingly individual meaning. She feels she was raped, he says no way. In other countries, women are raped and it is part of the culture and no one bats an eye. This topic is so touchy, one where our society asks what the victim did to provoke the attack. This is completely legitimate. If it were always the man breaking into the bedroom of a sleeping woman, there would be no discussion. But what if they are friends? What if they were drinking? Was there flirtation? All of these factors justifiably come into play. And because it involves sex, if there is no sign of violence, then you just have one person's word against another's and some fluids. Intent of either party is a very difficult thing to ascertain.
The way I look at my experience, at the end of it all - it was sex. Forced and unwanted, but sex. I wasn't harmed physically. He's a POS, but I don't want him to have any further power over me. I won't let it destroy my sexuality or my mental and emotional health. Maybe this is a very detached way to cope, but it is my way to move forward.
TLDR - Be careful who you surround yourself with, and who you bang.
Posted on 7/30/14 at 5:25 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
ever since fricking facebook blew up in 2005, the term "stalk" has become far to loosey goosey
This times a million. A real stalker is scary shite.
Posted on 7/30/14 at 5:25 pm to liz18lsu
I think that is an excellent post, Liz. You said what I wanted to say in a much more eloquent way. 
I'm sure Wink would agree were she here.
I'm sure Wink would agree were she here.
Posted on 7/30/14 at 5:28 pm to liz18lsu
quote:amen. This goes for men and women.
Be careful who you surround yourself with, and who you bang.
Posted on 7/30/14 at 5:28 pm to liz18lsu
Good post.
Posted on 7/30/14 at 5:29 pm to Winkface
Does the law gives specifics on what consent is?
I have never outright asked anyone for permission to do anything
I have never outright asked anyone for permission to do anything
This post was edited on 7/30/14 at 5:30 pm
Posted on 7/30/14 at 5:33 pm to CptBengal
aren't you a huge body builder type guy?
I'm sure you intimidate her
I'm sure you intimidate her
Posted on 7/30/14 at 5:33 pm to Thib-a-doe Tiger
You ask to get your arse kicked every time we play golf.
Posted on 7/30/14 at 5:34 pm to LouisianaLady
quote:
If parents and schools would stop fearing education about healthy sexual relationships, we could teach young girls how to properly give consent/properly defend themselves.. and we could teach young men how to look for consent and enthusiasm. With both working together, the question of consent wouldn't be so cloudy.
Young girls are hardly taught anything other than "don't have sex" and "boys are mean" while their daddy cleans his gun and tells her she can't date until she's 30.. and young boys are taught even less. It's not exactly common practice for young boys to be taught about respect and consent from their parents or teachers. I don't know if that's because it wasn't a social problem until the last 20 years or what..
You're making Baby Jesus cry...
Posted on 7/30/14 at 5:35 pm to Thib-a-doe Tiger
quote:
I have never outright asked anyone for permission to do anything
I mean, I have never been like "Yes, let's fornicate" either. But actively participating is a sign. Who wants to bang someone with no active participation anyway?
Posted on 7/30/14 at 5:38 pm to LouisianaLady
quote:
I never said anything about the hypothetical person giving consent. I said not fighting back. I never said she said yes. I never said she was annoyed and said "okay screw me". I said flat out.. saying no, being pushed over and over until you just go silent and lie there. Almost exactly the same thing the Liz described except it sounds like she didn't say anything at all and disassociated from the entire act.
your hypothetical is not rape and is insulting to Liz by saying it's the same thing. she was grabbed out of the blue by a guy she didn't know and raped. a girlfriend not having the balls to get up and walk away isn't rape.
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