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Message
re: A biblical warning about our times
Posted on 2/11/22 at 1:18 pm to Revelator
Posted on 2/11/22 at 1:18 pm to Revelator
quote:
We are fortunate this thread has been tolerated. A thread solely based on two people debating theological positions almost certainly will not.
We will proceed notwithstanding your comment here.
1
Posted on 2/11/22 at 1:20 pm to FooManChoo
Foo, you refuse to begin a new thread that starts with your particular church's catechism, or whatever preferred term.
What is your denomination?
What is your denomination?
Posted on 2/11/22 at 1:24 pm to Revelator
quote:This is my view on things.
Listen, I know Godly men who have a different belief about the rapture than I do, and that’s fine. The Idea of a rapture is separated from salvation and is not worth fighting over.
There may be a lot of secondary issues that Christians disagree on, but what's most important is that we get the gospel right.
Posted on 2/11/22 at 1:29 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
what's most important is that we get the gospel right.
You refuse to designate your exact denomination and you refuse to link us to the core beliefs of the Protestant denomination to which you belong. You refuse to open a new thread to have this conversation.
Is this correct?
Posted on 2/11/22 at 1:39 pm to Champagne
quote:
We will proceed notwithstanding your comment here.
You misunderstood me. I don’t object to both of you debating. I was simply saying that if you started a separate thread to do so, it might get whacked.
Posted on 2/11/22 at 1:48 pm to Champagne
quote:Yes, based only on my perception that it will cause greater issues, including the thread likely getting shut down, to use that method to continue this discussion. I assure you that it is not based on some fear or hesitation to discuss my beliefs.
Foo, you refuse to begin a new thread that starts with your particular church's catechism, or whatever preferred term.
quote:Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America (RPCNA).
What is your denomination?
You can find our Constitution online. It includes the Westminster Confession of Faith with the RP Testimony (a commentary of the Confession and application of it to life in various ways) as well as the Westminster Larger and Shorter Catechisms, Directory for Public Worship, and other things that describe how we do things.
This post was edited on 2/12/22 at 8:20 am
Posted on 2/11/22 at 1:50 pm to Revelator
How long have you been a Reverend? Is it a generational thing? Was your dad a preacher/Reverend? Good for you. 
Posted on 2/11/22 at 1:59 pm to cajunangelle
quote:
How long have you been a Reverend? Is it a generational thing? Was your dad a preacher/Reverend? Good for you.
I’m not a preacher. I’m simply a Bible believing Christian that has been born again for about 40 years. My dad and my grandpa where both Catholics.
Funny story though. I ordered some new checks from my credit union last time, and the woman servicing me asked if I’d like all the information to remain the same?
I said yes.
But when the checks came in, it had Rev. _____ on them?! I don’t know how this happened, since my old checks never had Rev. on them.
This post was edited on 2/11/22 at 2:09 pm
Posted on 2/11/22 at 3:18 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
I assure you that it is not based on some fear or hesitation to discuss my beliefs.
But you yourself say that it is the concern that you MIGHT get your thread deleted that keeps you from making the thread to explain your particular church. So, you have chosen to Censor yourself based on a "concern", if not a fear. OK. That seems strange to me, but, I'm not going to concern myself with that. Good thing Jesus Christ didn't share your concern and Pre-Censor Himself.
Thank you for identifying your denomination: Presbyterian. Originated in Scotland. John Calvin. Predestination.
Predestination is proven by Scripture Alone and this is perfectly clear from Scripture Alone. Except that most Protestants don't agree with Calvin on Predestination, so, to me that says that it's not perfectly clear from Scripture Alone.
How many Presbyterian denominations are there? I mean, throughout the world today AND including throughout history since this particular off shoot of the Church of England was created in Scotland.
Posted on 2/11/22 at 3:45 pm to Champagne
quote:You don't sound like you're acting in good faith here. You seem to be wanting to attack me personally rather than discuss my particular beliefs by implying that I'm acting in fear just because I'm trying to be respectful to the board.
But you yourself say that it is the concern that you MIGHT get your thread deleted that keeps you from making the thread to explain your particular church. So, you have chosen to Censor yourself based on a "concern", if not a fear. OK. That seems strange to me, but, I'm not going to concern myself with that. Good thing Jesus Christ didn't share your concern and Pre-Censor Himself.
I've been around long enough to know what sort of discussions get deleted/anchored and what don't. It's not out of fear but practical concern that I don't want to start a new one. This simply isn't a good format for starting niche discussions intended for one or two people.
I've given you my email address, provided you with details about my denominational affiliation, and have, thus far, been willing to discuss with you my beliefs. I don't understand what your angle is to try to attack me for not making a thread specifically for the two of us to carry on this discussion when I've provided alternatives, including being willing to carry on the discussion in this thread. That isn't censoring myself at all. That's merely being judicious with how I continue to engage with you.
quote:Predestination is believed by most Protestants if not by most Christians, period. The disagreement lies in what that looks like: does God predestine by His sovereign choice and will alone (Calvinism), or does He look into the future in some way to learn what people will choose first (Arminianism)?
Predestination is proven by Scripture Alone and this is perfectly clear from Scripture Alone. Except that most Protestants don't agree with Calvin on Predestination, so, to me that says that it's not perfectly clear from Scripture Alone.
To harken back to an earlier topic of discussion in this thread, it's not that the Bible isn't clear about predestination, but that humans are sinners who don't always understand what God's word says. Communication requires proper encoding of a message and decoding of a message, and even if the message is encoded clearly according to what the sender wishes to relay, the message may not be understood because the receiver decoding the message doesn't understand for whatever reason (context was missed; the message wasn't read fully; assumptions cloud the interpretation; etc.)
I might also add that a Calvinistic understanding of Predestination was the majority report in Protestant churches until the last century or so. It's decline also seemed to correlate with the rise in pre-mil dispensationalism which interprets the Bible as disunified rather than unified. It's not just the doctrine of predestination that has been impacted by the increase in Arminian, Pre-mil Dispensationalism, and that isn't because the Bible isn't clear. Most Christians have no idea why they believe what they believe other than that's what they've been taught. That's not a problem with the Bible.
quote:While I think the question is irrelevant, I actually don't know the number. Several dozen at least, I'm sure.
How many Presbyterian denominations are there? I mean, throughout the world today AND including throughout history since this particular off shoot of the Church of England was created in Scotland.
This post was edited on 2/11/22 at 3:46 pm
Posted on 2/11/22 at 5:19 pm to Champagne
Champagne, I have read this thread with interest. But I think that you’re acting in the role of troll when it comes to replies to Foo. He has plainly stated his views, with links, and yet you keep trying to prod him.
I’ve lost any respect that I had for you, which was pretty low to begin with because of your fanatical views of your religion. But not to worry - go into the confessional, because some guy wearing a collar sitting behind a screen has the authority to absolve you of all your sins.
I’ve lost any respect that I had for you, which was pretty low to begin with because of your fanatical views of your religion. But not to worry - go into the confessional, because some guy wearing a collar sitting behind a screen has the authority to absolve you of all your sins.
Posted on 2/11/22 at 5:25 pm to FooManChoo
FooManChoo is undefeated as OP in UGA Game Threads. Including the NC Game Thread on our board (still stickied).
His God is clearly the one true God.
His God is clearly the one true God.
Posted on 2/11/22 at 5:27 pm to jimmarley
quote:
which was pretty low to begin with because of your fanatical views of your religion.
Not to white knight, but what makes his views so fanatical? Revelator seems to be the only real fanatic in this thread.
Posted on 2/11/22 at 6:03 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
What the concern boils down to is an assumption that man is basically good and either deserves Heaven or does not deserve Hell. Therefore, if God does not save everyone from Hell, He must be evil, because He is giving people who aren't saved something they don't deserve.
Ok so you think man is not good in himself? God created something that was not good? How does that work with a God who is goodness himself. God's goodness is a basic philosophical position that has been held throughout the centuries, and doesn't in anyway contradict scripture. If God is good, and perfect, then he cannot create anything that is evil. Therefore it would seem that man in his nature is good. However because of the freedom of man, sin and evil entered the world. It is by the choice of Adam and Eve that we deserve death, not because God created us evil and we deserve death.
Where I have issue with your position comes down to what some would call double predestination. God predestines some to heaven and some to hell. This is in error as shown when St. Paul says God desires that all be saved, however God respects our freedom and because we choose evil instead of God he sends us to hell. Not because he preordained us to go to hell but because we basically send ourselves there.
As I've explained ad nauseam it seems like. The way I understand God's foreknowledge and our freedom is that God in his infinite knowledge knows how we will respond to his grace and he uses that foreknowledge to predestine who he will save or as St. Paul says. "For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified."
The Catechism explains it better than I can.
quote:
599 Jesus’ violent death was not the result of chance in an unfortunate coincidence of circumstances, but is part of the mystery of God’s plan, as St. Peter explains to the Jews of Jerusalem in his first sermon on Pentecost: “This Jesus [was] delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God.” This Biblical language does not mean that those who handed him over were merely passive players in a scenario written in advance by God.
600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination,” he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.
the key quote is, he includes each person's free response to his grace. God knows everything past present and future, but it doesn't take away our freedom.
quote:
If God is passively waiting for what we will do (knowing ahead of time or not), then it is us who are choosing God, not God who is choosing us. And if that were true, then salvation isn't God freely showing mercy, but giving salvation based on what we do, and if it's something given based on something we do, then it is something we've merited, yet we are told that salvation is a free gift, not a reward or a wage earned.
this is where we disagree. God can include freedom in his plan, he can include as the Catechism explains our free response to his grace in his plan. Man choosing him or not doesn't take away from God's power or his sovereignty over all creation. We can't do anything without God, it must be him choosing us, but that doesn't mean we don't have the freedom to reject or accept his choosing of us.
All of this is starting to wear on me and I need to take a break. Maybe I'll respond tomorrow after a good night sleep. We shall see.
Posted on 2/11/22 at 6:21 pm to catholictigerfan
The Gospel does not change. Man does (hence: denominations).
God does not care what flavor you are rather who you say (believe) He is.
God does not care what flavor you are rather who you say (believe) He is.
Posted on 2/11/22 at 7:30 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:You answered your own question. God created man good, yet man sinned. This is where original sin comes in (unless you want to go full Pelagian and deny it, which you haven't done to date). Adam's sin permeated all of his posterity, and therefore all have a sinful nature, corrupted and incapable of choosing that which is spiritually good. That's precisely why we must be "born again" by the Spirit.
Ok so you think man is not good in himself? God created something that was not good? How does that work with a God who is goodness himself. God's goodness is a basic philosophical position that has been held throughout the centuries, and doesn't in anyway contradict scripture. If God is good, and perfect, then he cannot create anything that is evil. Therefore it would seem that man in his nature is good. However because of the freedom of man, sin and evil entered the world. It is by the choice of Adam and Eve that we deserve death, not because God created us evil and we deserve death.
quote:Whether you want to accept double predestination or not, the result is the same if God chose to save some and not others rather than purposefully condemn some along with purposefully saving others. In the end, God would have chosen to save some people from their sins while others would not be saved, and thus, they would be damned.
Where I have issue with your position comes down to what some would call double predestination. God predestines some to heaven and some to hell. This is in error as shown when St. Paul says God desires that all be saved, however God respects our freedom and because we choose evil instead of God he sends us to hell. Not because he preordained us to go to hell but because we basically send ourselves there.
There is a doctrine about the two wills of God. They are referred to in many ways (secret will and revealed will; sovereign will and moral will; will of decree and will of command; etc.) but the gist of it is that there are things that God ordains to happen that He doesn't necessarily "want" to happen. Or another way of saying it is that God allows or even determines something to happen that He doesn't like for the sake of something to happen that He does like.
For instance, God didn't will (desire) that Christ, His only begotten son, should die a painful and shameful death on the cross, but God willed (decreed and ordained) it to happen for the sake of saving a people for Himself.
In this way, God doesn't desire that anyone should perish in Hell (though they, as we all, deserve it), but ordains that many do that His name would be magnified by the mercy He shows to those He saves.
quote:Again, if God is merely looking ahead in time (or in the present, however you want to view God in terms of time), then God isn't ordaining anything to happen with our salvation, He is just passively watching what we will do. In essence, we are masters of our own destiny in that regard, because God isn't "saving" us in a strict sense, He is just watching us save ourselves by using grace better than those who don't accept the offer of salvation. The end result is the same: God isn't "choosing" us, He is merely responding to us "choosing" Him. \
As I've explained ad nauseam it seems like. The way I understand God's foreknowledge and our freedom is that God in his infinite knowledge knows how we will respond to his grace and he uses that foreknowledge to predestine who he will save or as St. Paul says. "For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified."
That isn't sovereignty if we are the ones who decide our own fate. This view gives us something to boast about, because if the only difference between a person who hears the gospel and rejects it and me, who has heard the gospel and has received it by faith, is the action of exercising faith (as a work?), then I am the difference, not God. Therefore I can boast. This is exactly what Paul was preaching against when he said that we are saved by grace through faith, not by works, so that we cannot boast in our own salvation.
In regards to the quote from Romans 8: this is commonly used to defend the belief that God looked ahead to see what we would choose and then He acted according to that choice, however the object of God's foreknowledge is not our choices, but us. What is that foreknowledge? It's us; God's elect. We are His chosen people whom He "knew" (loved, and had a special, saving relationship with prior to even the foundation of the world) and therefore chose in eternity past to conform us to the image of Christ, so that Christ, through His passion and suffering on the cross, would be the first of us to die and be resurrected.
And those of us whom God predestined in eternity past, when the time came, He called us to Himself ("my sheep know my voice and they follow me"), and because we heard the call and responded in faith (because of the effectual call of the Spirit), we were justified by that faith in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection; and those of us who are justified will one day be glorified as the natural result of God's choosing us, calling us, saving us through the gift of faith, and keeping us in that faith until the end, where we will have all our sin removed and reflect the full image of God through Christ, as perfectly holy in Heaven.
A proper understanding of that verse actually supports the "Calvinist" interpretation, namely that is it us, God's elect, that God foreknew or foreloved, and saved us due to that love. He planned to do that before He had created even the heavens and the earth, and it is because of that mercy we can look to God and praise Him for His love, for He saved us, truly and fully. We cannot boast because He did it all. Praise be to God.
quote:There was quite a lot of "freedom" that had to take place for Christ to be in the position He was in, at the right time and place in history, to accomplish what God had ordained to pass. All of the people--in Adam's line, in Abraham's line, in David's line--that had to do certain actions at certain times for everything to take place just as God prophesied through the Prophets, all leading to the cross where Jesus had to be nailed to the cross. That isn't merely God sitting back and watching things unfold as to not interfere with our wills. God actively uses men to accomplish His purposes. Joseph's brothers willed that they should sell Joseph into slavery, but God had ordained (not just knew and watched) that that act should happen so Joseph could rise to power in Egypt and save his family from the famine that God had already planned to send.
...the key quote is, he includes each person's free response to his grace. God knows everything past present and future, but it doesn't take away our freedom.
Not only that, but God ordained that the people of Israel would be taken into bondage in Egypt so that He would deliver them by His own hand. While Pharaoh hardened his heart, we are also told that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, too, meaning that God orchestrated that Pharaoh wouldn't let the people go too early so that Pharaoh would get the glory for setting the people free. It was God that delivered the people, and He reminded them of it all the time.
All that God should desire will come to pass. God is sovereign.
Look up Eph. 1:11; Prov. 21:1; Prov. 19:21; Job 42:2; Ps. 135:6; Isa. 46:10; Prov. 16:9; Jn 6:44; Prov. 16:4; Isa. 45:7; Deut. 32:39; Ex. 4:11; Acts 4:27-28; Dan. 2:21; Isa. 14:24.
I could go on, but I'll leave it at at that. I hope you get some good rest
This post was edited on 2/11/22 at 8:22 pm
Posted on 2/11/22 at 9:11 pm to FooManChoo
Man Foo, man!
I’m not sure I could ever find the will to go that far with a Roman Catholic on election and predestination. Maybe a Southern Baptist (because they should know better)!
I’m damn near ecumenical these days. There’s too much at stake. Of course, you probably disagree with that statement in the same way that J. Gresham Machen disagreed about the mainline and the modernists.
I’m not sure I could ever find the will to go that far with a Roman Catholic on election and predestination. Maybe a Southern Baptist (because they should know better)!
I’m damn near ecumenical these days. There’s too much at stake. Of course, you probably disagree with that statement in the same way that J. Gresham Machen disagreed about the mainline and the modernists.
Posted on 2/11/22 at 9:24 pm to jimmarley
quote:
Champagne, I have read this thread with interest. But I think that you’re acting in the role of troll when it comes to replies to Foo. He has plainly stated his views, with links, and yet you keep trying to prod him.
I’ve lost any respect that I had for you, which was pretty low to begin with because of your fanatical views of your religion. But not to worry - go into the confessional, because some guy wearing a collar sitting behind a screen has the authority to absolve you of all your sins.
I invited Foo to start a new thread in order to examine and explore his religion and the documentation supporting his religion. He politely declined.
Are you saying that you'd like to take Foo's place and begin the conversation with me by starting your thread about your religion? Is this a challenge?
Posted on 2/11/22 at 9:39 pm to Champagne
quote:You should know that thread would never last. Also, religions? Everyone is speaking of a particular branch of Christianity, which is one faith. One religion.
Are you saying that you'd like to take Foo's place and begin the conversation with me by starting your thread about your religion? Is this a challenge?
This post was edited on 2/11/22 at 9:52 pm
Posted on 2/11/22 at 10:19 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
In regards to the quote from Romans 8: this is commonly used to defend the belief that God looked ahead to see what we would choose and then He acted according to that choice, however the object of God's foreknowledge is not our choices, but us. What is that foreknowledge? It's us; God's elect. We are His chosen people whom He "knew" (loved, and had a special, saving relationship with prior to even the foundation of the world) and therefore chose in eternity past to conform us to the image of Christ, so that Christ, through His passion and suffering on the cross, would be the first of us to die and be resurrected.
quote:
And those of us whom God predestined in eternity past, when the time came, He called us to Himself ("my sheep know my voice and they follow me"), and because we heard the call and responded in faith (because of the effectual call of the Spirit), we were justified by that faith in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection; and those of us who are justified will one day be glorified as the natural result of God's choosing us, calling us, saving us through the gift of faith, and keeping us in that faith until the end, where we will have all our sin removed and reflect the full image of God through Christ, as perfectly holy in Heaven.
I don’t know your background Foo but it seems you have been through seminary and likely additional religious and philosophy studies, you are much more learned than most on this forum when it comes to Holy Scripture.
With that said, I can tell you I have known since I was old enough to remember (probably 3-4 years of age) there was a God/Creator. Was raised in a Methodist home but my parents didn’t take us to church service every Sunday and by the time I was 7-8 years old we rarely went to Church service. Maybe my early life’s experience with Sunday School planted a seed but as I got older into my teens and 20’s I was living more of an agnostic life. I still believed their was a higher power/God but couldn’t really say I knew this God intimately, yet every time I faced a personal crisis I prayed and talked to this God and I was always brought through the turmoil. To this day I don’t know for sure if my prayers back in that period of my life were to the Creator of all things but parts of your post that I have quoted made me wonder if God was hearing my prayers back then in my life because He knew I was going to have a Holy Spirit encounter and accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior.
Yeah, I don’t know, there’s so much to learn by reading the Bible it can get a little overwhelming and confusing at times. Other times it’s like I’m just reading scripture and not getting anything and then one verse will hit like a ton of bricks and it’s like you just received a Holy Spirit recharge. Lol!
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