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re: "Fiscally conservative but socially liberal"
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:12 am to Bham4Tide
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:12 am to Bham4Tide
quote:
And what if the religion is one that you don’t agree with? Or the morals of one is unlike the morals of others? You want the government to only apply to your religion and/or your moral code?
The reality is that Adams meant Christian and he meant Christian or deist moral order. I don't say that to claim us as a Christian country, etc., but for the context Adams didn't envision a country of devout Christians and Muslims over a country of secularists. He meant those of a general Christian persuasion, and that our system is devised to function well with citizenry of that flavor.
Now, I think there is a decent argument that our country is more sustainable with people of religious persuasion vs. secularists, even if non-Christian. But that's a modern, Beckett Fund type idea that Adams (and candidly, the other founders) likely wouldn't recognize.
If you're asking me personally, yes, I want the government to govern in a way more or less consistent with Christianity and my moral code.
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Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:14 am to burger bearcat
How about frick you, I'll believe what I want, same as you.
I don't believe the government should have vast overreach and try to funnel every service under the sun through their pockets. There's the whole fiscal conservative thing.
I don't believe the government should be allowed to tell people what to do with their bodies (forced vaccinations, not allowed to have an abortion) or if consenting adult males or females want to frick. There's the whole socially liberal thing.
I don't believe the government should have vast overreach and try to funnel every service under the sun through their pockets. There's the whole fiscal conservative thing.
I don't believe the government should be allowed to tell people what to do with their bodies (forced vaccinations, not allowed to have an abortion) or if consenting adult males or females want to frick. There's the whole socially liberal thing.
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:14 am to AggieHank86
quote:
the amazing thing is that Jefferson was at the OTHER religiosity pole, and the two of them became fast friends.
At the time, and in that microcosm, I would more or less agree. I would dispute that they were polar opposites in any modern sense. They'd probably seem pretty close cousins today.
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:14 am to AcadieAnne
quote:Being fiscally or socially liberal or conservative has nothing to do with morality or religion. I have to seriously question people who think they are.
John Adams said “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:15 am to mmcgrath
quote:
Being fiscally or socially liberal or conservative has nothing to do with morality or religion. I have to seriously question people who think they are.
Is there an orthodox mainstream religion that aligns with socially liberal thought?
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:16 am to burger bearcat
I don't give a shite if someone wants to call themselves a social liberal so they can be accepted by the purple-hair cretins.
I DO care that people who can't define conservatism call themselves, "Conservative."
One of the major principles of conservatism is Originalism and/or Strict Constructionism and Constitutionalism and the rule of law- that is, conservatives believe the Constitution of the United States should be interpreted by what it actually says and what the founders meant when they wrote it; that it's not a "living" document that changes whenever it's politically or socially expedient.
If you believe the SCOTUS should not overturn RvW or that there is a federal right to murder children hidden somewhere in the Constitution, that issues that aren't mentioned in the Constitution (murdering babies, marriage, etc.) are left to the states to decide for themselves (that pesky 10th Amendment), then stop calling yourself conservative. You're not.
You're just a feather that's blown about whenever the political wind changes.
I DO care that people who can't define conservatism call themselves, "Conservative."
One of the major principles of conservatism is Originalism and/or Strict Constructionism and Constitutionalism and the rule of law- that is, conservatives believe the Constitution of the United States should be interpreted by what it actually says and what the founders meant when they wrote it; that it's not a "living" document that changes whenever it's politically or socially expedient.
If you believe the SCOTUS should not overturn RvW or that there is a federal right to murder children hidden somewhere in the Constitution, that issues that aren't mentioned in the Constitution (murdering babies, marriage, etc.) are left to the states to decide for themselves (that pesky 10th Amendment), then stop calling yourself conservative. You're not.
You're just a feather that's blown about whenever the political wind changes.
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:17 am to mmcgrath
quote:
Being fiscally or socially liberal or conservative has nothing to do with morality or religion.
Of course being socially liberal has to do with morality. Your morality determines HOW socially liberal you want to be.
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:18 am to Pettifogger
quote:To paraphrase Buckley, the “modern” conservative is someone who stumbles away from history muttering ‘whatever…’
I think this particular combination is a major part of the rot in the conservative movement.
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:21 am to Chancellor
quote:And I care that so many people cannot grasp the distinction between a Social Conservative and a Limited Government Conservative. Obviously, there are people who are both, but far fewer than many believe.
I DO care that people who can't define conservatism call themselves, "Conservative."
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:22 am to burger bearcat
quote:Then how come im rich AF and i love to party?
My explanation, is you can't have it both ways. All the fiscal irresponsibility goes right along with the social irresponsibility.
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:28 am to TexasTiger90
quote:
I don't believe the government should be allowed to tell people what to do with their bodies (forced vaccinations, not allowed to have an abortion) or if consenting adult males or females want to frick. There's the whole socially liberal thing.
What if they want to frick on the public playground? Are you THAT socially liberal or are you down with enforcing morality at some point?
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:39 am to Flats
quote:
What if they want to frick on the public playground? Are you THAT socially liberal or are you down with enforcing morality at some point?
Not allowing people to frick at a public park has nothing to do with morality. They can do it in their backyard. That does not make it more or less moral.
You don't have a defined, exclusive property right to a public park. It is not owned by you. Someone has a greater property right than you do to define what happens on that property. Again, has nothing to do with morals. It has to do with property rights.
If I own a building, I own the exclusive right to dicate what happens in my building. You, as an invitee, do not get to impose your own desires to the detriment of my rights.
How do sex clubs exist? (hint: property rights...not morality)
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:42 am to Ex-Popcorn
quote:
Not allowing people to frick at a public park has nothing to do with morality.
Of course it does. We, as the public owners of said park, don't allow it because it violates our social moral norms. There are people who would gladly do it but we restrict their liberty because it crosses a line.
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:45 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:
How about fiscally liberal but socially conservative?
That would be like a unicorn or a violent white supremist attack.
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:46 am to burger bearcat
You’re not smart when it comes to this.
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:47 am to burger bearcat
quote:
Fiscally conservative but socially liberal"
Usually this describes the rare group of leftists who understand math.
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:47 am to Flats
quote:
We, as the public owners of said park, don't allow it because it violates our social moral norms. There are people who would gladly do it but we restrict their liberty because it crosses a line.
I don't remember ever being asked what should be allowed in public parks. Do you?
Don't get me wrong, I agree that we have LOTS of laws and regulations that have been imposed in the name of morality. I'm telling you that those laws/rules are unwise and lack guiding principles. They rely upon the will of some in the name of "morals" to the exclusion of others who have different beliefs.
Why do you think that your opinion on morality should dictate what others do?
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:50 am to Ex-Popcorn
quote:
Why do you think that your opinion on morality should dictate what others do?
And, this is the entire reason legislating based on the moral beliefs of some is a problem.
What if those same people believe that it is immoral to have 2 spare bedrooms and that you must house the homeless in your second guest bedroom? You think that's absurd because you own your home and should say what happens inside. And, you'd be right. You can't believe in property rights only when it's convenient for you. They either apply across the board or they don't.
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:51 am to thermal9221
quote:
You’re not smart when it comes to this.
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:53 am to Ex-Popcorn
quote:
Don't get me wrong, I agree that we have LOTS of laws and regulations that have been imposed in the name of morality. I'm telling you that those laws/rules are unwise and lack guiding principles.
And we always have and we always will. Laws are based on values, values are personal, and somebody is going to be unhappy because their values don't line up with the rest of their culture's. You seem to think that morality can be extracted from the law and it's just not possible. If you want laws, you want moral values enforced. That's just a fact.
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