- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Winter Olympics
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
re: Greater Evil, Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia
Posted on 1/23/21 at 9:12 am to GardenDistrictTiger
Posted on 1/23/21 at 9:12 am to GardenDistrictTiger
The easy answer is the Nazis of course... if you say Soviet Russia... you’ll have to consider the US entertained the Russians and grew the myth... the Russians probably never actually had the reach to take over the world... most communist regimes would have collapsed from within as history has taught us...
0
Posted on 1/23/21 at 9:15 am to Penrod
quote:
While I agree with you that Russia wanted to do as you say, they would have been powerless to do so. It was only due to being armed and supplied by the USA that they were able to fight the Nazis. Even given time they would not have been able to build the manufacturing capability with that socialistic system.
The Soviet BY FAR had the largest and best equipped army in the world by 1941. And what’s more, it was combat hardened. The unexpectedly difficult campaign in the unbelievably difficult conditions of Finland in the winter against one of the best small armies in the world had shown it a lot. If they had attacked in 1941 going west, it would have been over in weeks with Soviet tanks rolling up on the shores of the English Channel. There simply wasn’t room in Europe for an in depth defense with an attacker as large and as well equipped as the Soviet’s were at that time starting on the doorstep of Germany as they would have.
The reasons the Germans were so successful initially in the invasion of Russia was because the bulk of the Soviet army, and I mean almost the entirety of it, was deployed within fifty miles or so of the frontier with Germany. The Germans were astonished at the massive amounts of stores in equipment, fuel, food, and ammunition they captured in the early days of the war. They had no idea most of that stuff was there.
Western historians have always portrayed it as a gullible Stalin getting caught off guard and having incompetently deployed his army so that once the Germans broke through, they were able to get behind and encircle millions of Russian troops. Does that really sound like Stalin who was known as being the most suspicious man to rule Russia since Ivan the Great? There is another explanation. I refer you to Khalkhin Gol.
This post was edited on 1/23/21 at 9:18 am
Posted on 1/23/21 at 9:20 am to Northshore Saint
quote:
You do realize the Soviet Union was our ally back in WWII? Without their efforts on the Eastern Front the allies probably would have fallen before the US got involved.
You realize of course, that France, Holland, and the entirety of Western Europe had already fallen before the US got involved and while the Soviet were still officially allied with Germany and supplying them with the oil, coal, wheat, and other raw materials to accomplish this conquest don’t you?
Posted on 1/23/21 at 9:21 am to GardenDistrictTiger
quote:
Greater Evil
Nancy Pelosi
Posted on 1/23/21 at 9:23 am to GardenDistrictTiger
quote:
Once they got things together there was no way Finland or Germany or Japan could hold up to the Soviet scythe.
The Russians had a very primitive supply train, and they relied on American trucks, provided by Lend Lease.
Without our help, I believe the Germans would have defeated them.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 9:25 am to Cossatotjoe
quote:
Soviet BY FAR had the largest and best equipped army in the world by 1941.
Wait what???... this not remotely true... the Russian Army was on the brinks of collapsing... Stalin could barely feed the Army around this time... the US saved Europe point blank... the Russian myth was concocted by the US as a excuse to grow the military...
Posted on 1/23/21 at 9:28 am to lepdagod
quote:
the US saved Europe
Did we?
Posted on 1/23/21 at 9:28 am to lepdagod
quote:
Wait what???... this not remotely true... the Russian Army was on the brinks of collapsing... Stalin could barely feed the Army around this time... the US saved Europe point blank... the Russian myth was concocted by the US as a excuse to grow the military...
What the hell are you talking about? In 1941, Russia invaded Poland and was allied with Germany. It had the largest and best equipped Army in the world BY FAR.
At the start of Barbarossa the Russians had 171 divisions deployed right up on the border with another fifteen planned. The 171 constituted around 3 million men. They had 33,000 pieces of artillery there. They had 11,000 tanks. They had 9,000 aircraft. After breaking through the Germans bumped into another 60 divisions or so that were in the process of deploying into the region in a move that had been planned even before the German invasion. All told there were 5,5 to 6 million Russian troops involved with another 14 million reserves.
In 1941 Russian tanks were generally superior to German tanks. Most of the fighting in the early days in Russia was done with Panzer I, II, III tanks. The ones and twos were very lightly armored and armed. Russian artillery was good. If the Russians didn’t expect an attack in the short term, it is because the underestimated how much of a gambler Hitler was and could not imagine him attacking such a superior force in a war he could not hope to win.
This post was edited on 1/23/21 at 9:49 am
Posted on 1/23/21 at 9:37 am to Cossatotjoe
quote:
What the hell are you talking about? In 1941, Russia invaded Poland and was allied with Germany. It had the largest and best equipped Army in the world BY FAR.
This is not fact... if anything the British were better equipped... the Russians had lost EVERY war/skirmish/battle the previous 50 years... Hitler obviously didn’t fear the Red Army... the Red Army was notorious for being ill equipped and under fed... what exactly are you saying when you say BEST army in the world in 1941
Posted on 1/23/21 at 9:42 am to jimbeam
quote:
Soviets. Look how much of the world they’ve converted
Yep, damned near all of it now.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 9:44 am to lepdagod
quote:
This is not fact... if anything the British were better equipped... the Russians had lost EVERY war/skirmish/battle the previous 50 years... Hitler obviously didn’t fear the Red Army... the Red Army was notorious for being ill equipped and under fed... what exactly are you saying when you say BEST army in the world in 1941
You’re not well informed at all.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:04 am to Cossatotjoe
quote:
The Soviet BY FAR had the largest and best equipped army in the world by 1941.
They relied heavily on horses, and were still living off the land in 1945, as they pushed into Germany, despite the massive amount of aid we sent them.
Their doctrine was also quite dated, and went back to the top heavy decision making system of the Imperial Russian Army. In the Soviet Army, lower level leaders had very limited latitude to make decisions, in the Germany Army, you would be told to “take that hill” by your CO, but you would decide how to do it. The German approach was better.
The Germans also taught their junior officers to take advantage of their enemies mistakes, even in the absence of orders. You could be punished for failing to exploit the battlefield.
That’s one of the reasons the Germans were so aggressive, and why they inflicted such lopsided casualties on everyone they fought.
The quality of the Soviet equipment was mixed. It would be reliable and effective, but the workmanship was usually poor, and ergonomics were not a priority. You can see that in the furniture of a Mosin Nagant, or with the brutal transmission of a T-34.
This post was edited on 1/23/21 at 10:08 am
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:13 am to GardenDistrictTiger
probably neither, 6 million jews didn't get murdered
both of these things were controlled in terms of optics by the same financiers and machine handlers
the biggest evil is the machine that does all of this
we can look at the christian holocaust in Russia as a cover up to a previous civilization and a far greater slaughtering than even the falsified jewish holocaust
both of these things were controlled in terms of optics by the same financiers and machine handlers
the biggest evil is the machine that does all of this
we can look at the christian holocaust in Russia as a cover up to a previous civilization and a far greater slaughtering than even the falsified jewish holocaust
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:14 am to Hidden Tiger
imagine having an auschwitz soccer team, movie theatre, delousing and cleaning protocol, dental care facilities etc
imagine having all of that if you're just executing people
imagine having all of that if you're just executing people
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:15 am to GardenDistrictTiger
Yes.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:24 am to GardenDistrictTiger
quote:Equally bad, in most ways.
Should German National Socialism be regarded as the greater evil to world peace and prosperity compared to Soviet Russia?
Nazi Germany was the more threatening at the time, because Germany was by FAR the more technologically advanced country, and was way more intertwined with Western Europe (the major powers of the world, along with the US). They were making better stuff than anyone else, were probably 10+ years ahead of us in lots of scientific innovations, and clearly could have jumped into the spot we've held since WW2 as "leaders of the world in every field".
Soviet Russia was the MORE disturbing society of the two, because while the Nazis attacked Jews and other ethnicities, they were somewhat tolerant of mainstream Christianity and private business practices. The Soviets were completely atheist by policy, as ANY sort of religion/spirituality was considered wrong and a threat to the State. And all ethnicities were also equally inferior to the State, as well as any concept of ownership, personal income, or the family unit.
Basically, Nazism was a hyper-polarized version of Western society, while Communism was intended to erase all Western society concepts, going back to before Ancient Greece- you simply existed to serve the State, from birth until death. No individualism, no achievement, no philosophy beyond how to serve, no spiritualism (existence of the "soul" or any self-awareness).
If Nazism would have prevailed, there would be extreme ethnic genocide, followed by a period of technological advances, and if one were lucky enough to be the "right" ethnicity, some aspects of life could be recognizable. We'd probably be a more advanced world than we are now.
If Soviet communism had prevailed, there would be no tech as we know it, the world would be stagnated at a level probably around the early 1900's. The only form of electronic media would be radio, extolling us daily to do our chores for the State.
Nazism, I think, could eventually be neutered and society could drift back towards basic Western Civilization, with minimal setback of progress. Communism, if entrenched worldwide, would take hold in a far deeper manner, and if there were no more opposing views in place in the world, would erase history within a couple generations, and the world would live like a giant ant pile. It would probably take centuries for even the concept of an organized religion to return, and likely nothing like what we have developed.
That's important, because religious values have shaped society, laws and morality since it began... the Nazis would overlay existing stuff. The Soviets would start completely from scratch.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:24 am to Lima Whiskey
quote:
They relied heavily on horses, and were still living off the land in 1945, as they pushed into Germany, despite the massive amount of aid we sent them.
So did the Germans. But, the main reason they relied on horses is because, as the Germans discovered, there were no roads in 1940s Russia. Trucks are useless if there are no roads. Which, of course, creates supply bottlenecks and causes things like armies having to live off the land. The Soviet’s had to transport American supplies across 11 times zones and thousands of miles from ports on the Pacific to the front.
As to the point about roads I’ll bring this up. In 1941 the Soviet’s had about 10,000 BT tanks. While this is largely seen as as a failure of a design, it was comparable in armor to German tanks of the time and had a superior gun when compared to Panzer I and IIs. It also had one notable feature. It was by far the fastest tank in the world. The tracks could be removed and it could could travel at speeds of nearly 60 mph on paved roads. The Russians had trained with the Germans in the late 20s and 30s and they were both big proponents of what would come to be known as Blitzkrieg or the breakout doctrine of armored warfare championed by Liddell Hart. The tank was designed to be so fast so that it could exploit breakouts and encircle the enemy. Except, it’s main feature relied upon roads. A tank with an ability to travel fast on roads is useless in a country without roads and Russia had no roads. So, where was this tank designed to operate and why did the Soviet’s build 10,000 of them?
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:27 am to bbvdd
quote:
Didn’t the Japanese kill the most in WW2?
Upwards of 10 million?
It was more than that. They systematically slaughtered civilians in every territory they conquered. Their civilian body count is estimated to be around 14 million, mostly Chinese.
Their treatment of POWs is what puts them over the top for me. The ways they killed POWs were some of the most horrific shite known to mankind.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:28 am to VADawg
quote:
It was more than that. They systematically slaughtered civilians in every territory they conquered. Their civilian body count is estimated to be around 14 million, mostly Chinese.
Their treatment of POWs is what puts them over the top for me. The ways they killed POWs were some of the most horrific shite known to mankind.
came in here to rep for the nips, they were the most barbaric race in history around WWII
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:28 am to Northshore Saint
quote:
You do realize the Soviet Union was our ally back in WWII? Without their efforts on the Eastern Front the allies probably would have fallen before the US got involved.
They were Germany's ally first. They signed a non aggression pact and both agreed to invade and split Poland to open the war. The USSR didn't start fighting against the Germans until the Germans launched Operation Barbarossa, which caught Stalin totally off guard.
Page 7 of 12
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News