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Message
re: If homosexuals are “born that way”
Posted on 2/17/23 at 11:39 am to Liberator
Posted on 2/17/23 at 11:39 am to Liberator
No it's not if youre using God/The Bible for your disapprobation of homosexuality. The Bible reads tbat all sins are equal. Sexual gratification between 2 men or 2 unmarried male/female persons is the same in God's eyes (Per the Bible).
2
Posted on 2/17/23 at 11:43 am to PrattvilleTiger
Eating shrimp is a sin, according to the Bible.
Posted on 2/17/23 at 11:43 am to Displaced
quote:
Homosexuality occurs in many species
Doesn't make it genetic.
Posted on 2/17/23 at 11:44 am to Giantkiller
quote:
I can tell you with 1000% accuracy he would have never "chosen" to be like this.
I've seen this logic/argument before and I think it relies on the belief that people do what's in their own best interest 100% of the time.
I have a niece that leads a trainwreck of a life. She perpetually complains about and claims she wants to live differently. She continues to make choices in the short term (drugs and bad men) that absolutely ensures her life will never change.
People choose to be heroin addicts even if that means they live on the street. No one makes them take drugs but they want that more than they want a stable life.
People choose the hard road all the time. They might complain about it and it might be nonsensical but it happens everyday.
Posted on 2/17/23 at 11:56 am to PrattvilleTiger
quote:
The Bible reads tbat all sins are equal.
No they are NOT.
Yes, sin is sin. No one is allowed into God's Kingdom without purification and redemption of sin by proxy through the blood of Jesus Christ.
THAT SAID...
Scripture also speaks to "Abominations" and specific sins that "God hates."
quote:
Sexual gratification between 2 men or 2 unmarried male/female persons is the same in God's eyes (Per the Bible).
Again -- NOT the same as per God Himself.
Posted on 2/17/23 at 11:59 am to Robin Masters
quote:
Then it’s a genetic trait. And if it’s a genetic trait wouldn’t have evolution made that characteristic “extinct” since homosexuals would obviously be procreating less prolifically than heterosexuals?
Procreation through adoption by homosexual couples is a possible way. Though I’m sure it’s touted that adopted children are going to be allowed to make their own choices about their sex and sexuality. But can they without a male father and female mother demonstrating a healthy heterosexuality?
It’s really about sin. If it’s genetic then it can’t be helped. God made me this way.
It’s irrelevant totally. Scripture says homosexual actions are a sin as much as heterosexual fornication is a sin. Actions not temptations.
I can’t tell God, “genetically you created me to spread my seed far and wide among as many women as possible to procreate and advance the species so your Scriptures don’t apply to me.”
I’m expected to resolutely resist temptations to commit adultery or, were I single, to fornication.
Why do homosexuals, especially those who claim the name of Christ, get a pass on this? Tough truth. Your “predisposition” isn’t a “Get out of Hell” free card. You’re accountable to God for your actions, not for your temptations. Just the same as the rest of us.
Posted on 2/17/23 at 12:02 pm to Robin Masters
quote:
Then it’s a genetic trait. And if it’s a genetic trait wouldn’t have evolution made that characteristic “extinct” since homosexuals would obviously be procreating less prolifically than heterosexuals?
Anyone care to explain this to me?
We still spit out retards at an alarming rate.
And gay people have the capacity to reproduce and can do so at any rate they choose and even at a supposed lower rate they would still reproduce. JFC, this whole premise and thread is fricking retarded.
This post was edited on 2/17/23 at 12:07 pm
Posted on 2/17/23 at 12:10 pm to BeepNode
quote:If there are HomoDemons out there possessing men and forcing them to play catcher, I cannot help wondering if there are also FabriDemons, EscargoDemons and CrustaceaDemons out there forcing people to mix fabrics and to eat snails, shrimp and lobster against their will.
Eating shrimp is a sin, according to the Bible.
This post was edited on 2/17/23 at 1:05 pm
Posted on 2/17/23 at 12:24 pm to Mr. Misanthrope
Outstanding exposition, MM.
I'd not considered "Christian" homosexuals and how they might rationalize their actions as "Believers."
Obedience to God is the bottom line. And repentance. One cannot continue live whatever "lifestyle" THEY want and still expect to see the Kingdom. FREE WILL. God never removes it, so WE either condemn ourselves OR save ourselves.
quote:
I’m expected to resolutely resist temptations to commit adultery or, were I single, to fornication.
Why do homosexuals, especially those who claim the name of Christ, get a pass on this?
Tough truth. Your “predisposition” isn’t a “Get out of Hell” free card. You’re accountable to God for your actions, not for your temptations. Just the same as the rest of us.
I'd not considered "Christian" homosexuals and how they might rationalize their actions as "Believers."
Obedience to God is the bottom line. And repentance. One cannot continue live whatever "lifestyle" THEY want and still expect to see the Kingdom. FREE WILL. God never removes it, so WE either condemn ourselves OR save ourselves.
This post was edited on 2/17/23 at 12:27 pm
Posted on 2/17/23 at 12:25 pm to cwill
quote:
Then it’s a genetic trait. And if it’s a genetic trait wouldn’t have evolution made that characteristic “extinct” since homosexuals would obviously be procreating less prolifically than heterosexuals? Anyone care to explain this to me?quote:
We still spit out retards at an alarming rate.
This post was edited on 2/17/23 at 12:34 pm
Posted on 2/17/23 at 12:27 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Isolated twin studies call that assumption to question
Two guys I grew up with who are twins turned out to be gay.
Posted on 2/17/23 at 12:33 pm to Griffindawg
quote:No offense, but I think you missed his point. The fact that your friends are both gay does not really address the genetic component, because they also have the same environmental factors ... both in utero and post-natal. You don't alter any independent variable by looking at the two of them.quote:Isolated twin studies call that assumption to question
If homosexuals are “born that way," then it’s a genetic trait.quote:
Two guys I grew up with who are twins turned out to be gay.
His reference to the "isolated twin studies" attempts to address that situation by examining twins with the SAME genetics and analyzing the results when they are raised in DIFFERENT environments. The (altered) independent variable is "post-natal environment." (Sort of a reverse "Boys from Brazil," where they separated the clones but tried to REPLICATE the same environment)
I personally think that the isolated twin studies CONFIRM a genetic component AND that environmental variables are also a factor, but he seems to believe otherwise.
This post was edited on 2/17/23 at 12:44 pm
Posted on 2/17/23 at 12:40 pm to Liberator
quote:
I'd not considered "Christian" homosexuals and how they might rationalize their actions as "Believers."
Obedience to God is the bottom line. And repentance. One cannot continue live whatever "lifestyle" THEY want and still expect to see the Kingdom. FREE WILL. God never removes it, so WE either condemn ourselves OR save ourselves.
Do you have the same view for the "Christian" divorcees and how they might rationalize their actions as "Believers"?
Posted on 2/17/23 at 1:40 pm to SoonerK
quote:To paraphrase Eric Arthur Blair, some sins are more equal than others.
Do you have the same view for the "Christian" divorcees and how they might rationalize their actions as "Believers"?
Posted on 2/17/23 at 1:53 pm to SoonerK
quote:
quote:
I'd not considered "Christian" homosexuals and how they might rationalize their actions as "Believers."
Obedience to God is the bottom line. And repentance. One cannot continue live whatever "lifestyle" THEY want and still expect to see the Kingdom. FREE WILL. God never removes it, so WE either condemn ourselves OR save ourselves.
quote:
Do you have the same view for the "Christian" divorcees and how they might rationalize their actions as "Believers"?
"My" view doesn't nor can't countermand Scriptural commands as laid down by our Lord.
Many Christians have been woefully ignorant on the matter of Marriage, Divorce, Re-Marriage. Those who've engaged in frivolous reasons for divorce are technically (in God's eyes) considered "Adulterers"; and inadvertently so too are any of their partners (single Christians, ignorant of The Law who unknowingly "engaged" )
If Christians had already re-married (without knowing God's Law) there's nothing to do but be repentant and obedient.
To be Christian and divorced, sexual obedience is extra difficult. But then, if this their test, so be it. Choose wisely. We either live for THIS world OR the next. It's one reason why the "Gate is Wide to destruction," and "narrow is the gate" to God's Kingdom.
Many don't realize that divorce is expressly cited by the Lord as something He not only "Hates," BUT warns that "Adulterers" will not be welcome in the Kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts,
1 Timothy 1:10
for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave traders and liars and perjurers, and for anyone else who is averse to sound teaching
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Some further clarification:
https://www.gotquestions.org/grounds-for-divorce.html
quote:
The Bible gives two clear grounds for divorce:
(1) Sexual immorality [Adultery] (Matthew 5:32; 19:9) and
(2) Abandonment by an unbeliever (1 Corinthians 7:15).
Even in these two instances, though, divorce is not required or even encouraged.
The most that can be said is that sexual immorality and abandonment are grounds (an allowance) for divorce. Confession, forgiveness, reconciliation, and restoration are always the first steps. Divorce should only be viewed as a last resort.
Are there any grounds for divorce beyond what the Bible explicitly says?
Perhaps, but we do not presume upon the Word of God. It is very dangerous to go beyond what the Bible says (1 Corinthians 4:6).
The most frequent additional grounds for divorce that people inquire about are spousal abuse (emotional or physical), child abuse, addiction to pornography, drug / alcohol use, crime / imprisonment, and mismanagement of finances (such as through a gambling addiction). None of these can be claimed to be explicit biblical grounds for a divorce.
Posted on 2/17/23 at 1:56 pm to SoonerK
quote:
Do you have the same view for the "Christian" divorcees and how they might rationalize their actions as "Believers"?
Divorcées who remarry need to repent of their sin. Their lives going forward should more fully reflect Christ. If they continue in sexual sin, they will obviously have some issues.
Any other questions?
Posted on 2/17/23 at 2:38 pm to AggieHank86
quote:Isolated twin studies are discordant for homosexuality among female pairs. However, concordance rate for males is in the 52% range, i.e., at least 10X higher than for the general population. So there certainly appears to be a prenatal (genetic and/or in utero) component associated with males.
I personally think that the isolated twin studies CONFIRM a genetic component AND that environmental variables are also a factor, but he seems to believe otherwise.
However, there is a similar homosexual concordance in children raised by homosexual parents. e.g., Girls raised by lesbians have as high as a 12-fold increased chance of identifying as homosexual in adulthood. Similar, though slightly lower, correlation occurs with males.
So environment is a major factor. Overall, sexual orientation is influenced by a complex interplay of factors likely including genetic, epigenetic, and environmental components, rather than a gay gene or a simple genetic/hormonal model.
This post was edited on 2/17/23 at 2:39 pm
Posted on 2/17/23 at 3:21 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:Did you take a look at the study I cited on the preceding page? It found concordance at 66% for identical twins and at 30% for fraternal twins.
concordance rate for males is in the 52% range, i.e., at least 10X higher than for the general population. So there certainly appears to be a prenatal (genetic and/or in utero) component associated with males.
The lesbian question remains intriguing. More females than males self-report as being "LGB," but the majority of those females identify as bisexual while the majority of those males are attracted ONLY to the same sex. In other words, there seem to be more "pure" male homosexuals than "pure" female lesbians.
To a layman such as myself, this data (alongside the studies we have already discussed) tends to indicate a MUCH greater genetic role for male homosexuality, but a significant in utero environmental role for BOTH male and female homosexuality as well.
quote:I simplified this concept earlier in the thread, when I said that there is not a simple on/off "toggle switch" for determining homosexuality.
complex interplay of factors likely including genetic, epigenetic, and environmental components, rather than a gay gene or a simple genetic/hormonal model.
Posted on 2/17/23 at 3:51 pm to AggieHank86
quote:Much greater than female? Yes.
ends to indicate a MUCH greater genetic role for male homosexuality
I posted this earlier.
quote:X-recessive or Y-chromosomal associations almost certainly would account in M-F concordance differentials. But we've been painfully inept at locating culprit foci.
As we've observed virtually no female genetic proclivity, we've searched for X-recessive or Y-chromosomal associations. ... Despite reports to the contrary, scientific claims of strong genetic ties still range from marginal to dubious.
Regardless, environment seems to dominate psychological phenotypic expression. Depending on environment for the male population expressive variance runs from <1% to >90%. As noted earlier, parenting is likewise contributory.
Posted on 2/17/23 at 6:44 pm to OleWar
Um, no. I’ve just always liked the opposite sex, and never felt an attraction to my own sex.
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