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Started By
Message
re: Liberals Please Answer...If ACA is so good..
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:03 am to Draconian Sanctions
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:03 am to Draconian Sanctions
quote:
I'm a liberal and i don't like the ACA at all, albeit for very different reasons than conservatives.
you don't like it because you want the USA to have a National Health system like they have in the UK.
0
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:05 am to Creoleshmuck
quote:
You could also say, "does anyone on the right want this to succeed?"
In this case, desire is irrelevant to success.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:05 am to Patrick O Rly
quote:
is there another developed country comparable to our population that has universal health care?
england, france, germany, finland, sweden, taiwan, etc.
each country's universal system differs, of course. taiwan's is really good.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:07 am to DontCare
quote:Perhaps you missed it?
quote:
is there another developed country comparable to our population that has universal health care?
------------------
england, france, germany, finland, sweden, taiwan, etc.
each country's universal system differs, of course. taiwan's is really good.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:15 am to DontCare
quote:
taiwan's is really good.
Taiwan has 1/16th of the U.S.'s population. It's is completely homogeneous. The Taiwanese healthcare system is currently 60 Billion dollars in debt. There was an enormous backlash when government officials suggested raising premiums less than 1% to cover the annual deficit.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:18 am to Taxing Authority
quote:
Perhaps you missed it?
in 2011, the population of europe was 739 million. as of 2012, the population of america is 313 million. if all of europe has universal healthcare in varying forms, which is similar to the variation in healthcare coverages on a state-by-state basis in the united states, i think that is a fair comparison.
edited for typos.
This post was edited on 2/11/14 at 9:29 am
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:20 am to DontCare
quote:
in 2011, the population of europe was 739 billion. as of 2012, the population of america is 313 billion
Come again?
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:22 am to DontCare
quote:
if all of europe has universal healthcare in varying forms, which is similar to the variation in healthcare coverages on a state-by-state basis in the united states, i think that is a fair comparison.
Those systems are very different. Some are adequate; some are terrible. The population and diversity index of each system varies greatly. Hardly a quality comparison.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:23 am to DontCare
quote:
if all of europe has universal healthcare in varying forms, which is similar to the variation in healthcare coverages on a state-by-state basis in the united states, i think that is a fair comparison.
A few points, the states are not autonomous to run things as they please under Obamacare and reimbursement is tied to the federal government.
The countries you mention, including the Nordic nations are actually moving away from single payer in one form or another because it does not raise the level of care or standard of care.
The countries you mention also have much more strict immigration controls in place than the US currently.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:27 am to Antonio Moss
americans are overcharged by an estimated $10 billion dollars per year, which is 1/6th of that total debt you're referencing. that $10 billion doesn't even include the total cost we, as consumers, spend on healthcare.
and when you add to that the fact that our health insurance premiums have ballooned 108% between 1999 and 2009, it would seem that it would be in our best interests to attempt to curb premium hikes by some form of universal healthcare.
and when you add to that the fact that our health insurance premiums have ballooned 108% between 1999 and 2009, it would seem that it would be in our best interests to attempt to curb premium hikes by some form of universal healthcare.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:29 am to DeltaDoc
quote:
Come again?
sorry, i'd just read the "billions" in that prior post and wrote that instead of "millions." edited.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:30 am to Antonio Moss
quote:
Those systems are very different. Some are adequate; some are terrible. The population and diversity index of each system varies greatly. Hardly a quality comparison.
of course each system is different. and the quality of care in hawaii versus mississippi is very different.
look, if you want a 1 to 1 comparison, you're never going to get it. in anything.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:33 am to DontCare
quote:
americans are overcharged by an estimated $10 billion dollars per year, which is 1/6th of that total debt you're referencing. that $10 billion doesn't even include the total cost we, as consumers, spend on healthcare. and when you add to that the fact that our health insurance premiums have ballooned 108% between 1999 and 2009, it would seem that it would be in our best interests to attempt to curb premium hikes by some form of universal healthcare.
Then Obamacare should have been a one piece page of legislation which allowed insurance to be sold and utilized across state lines.
I assume you realize that many of the structural components for the points you just attempted to make are actually tied directly to government overreach into healthcare, right?
Moreover, how does Obamacare solve this issue? The very reason Obama unilaterally keeps bumping the employer mandate is because so many are going to lose their employer provided insurance as a result of the mandate.
These people will not be able to afford the obamacare insurance, and at best, will then sign up for Medicaid, if eligible.
These people will then not have access to quality care and will lose access in many cases to the physicians that have provided care to them and their families for decades.
So, how did Obamacare solve any of the issues you mention? How would single payer in the US solve any of these issues?
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:42 am to DeltaDoc
quote:
A few points, the states are not autonomous to run things as they please under Obamacare and reimbursement is tied to the federal government.
of course. we live in a federal republic. europe is not a federal republic. but, it is the closest approximation i can make, in passing, with an america-wide healthcare system.
quote:
The countries you mention, including the Nordic nations are actually moving away from single payer in one form or another because it does not raise the level of care or standard of care.
not true. don't be mislead. we americans pay more for less, across the board. and, as far as european countries reforming their systems: i don't think that means that it doesn't work. you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. just because different countries face different problems and they seek to solve or better those problems, that doesn't mean that the whole shebang is broken. in fact, i'd say that our system is far more broken than theirs, but we are strangely reticent, as a country, to make some reforms that may make our system better.
quote:
The countries you mention also have much more strict immigration controls in place than the US currently.
immigration controls wax and wain. france, for instance, has a very inclusive immigration policy for its former colonies, but is otherwise very restrictive. so, my point here is just that it's difficult to pigeon-hole whole countries' immigration policies much in the same way as ours is.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:45 am to DeltaDoc
quote:
Liberals Please Answer...If ACA is so good
SO good? No. Better than what we had before? Yes.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:46 am to DeltaDoc
The ACA is a conservative plan...not a liberal plan.
Liberals want single payer.
Please educate yourself as to what liberals want before asking us stupid questions.
Liberals want single payer.
Please educate yourself as to what liberals want before asking us stupid questions.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:53 am to DontCare
It's funny, the people on this board and across America that were against the enactment of the ACA were called flat-earthers, racists and many other pejorative terms.
Turns out, we were right. The ACA has been a disaster, so much so that even the democrats and the president that signed the legislation don't want it to be implemented, and as such, continue to delay it.
So now, predictably, the same proponents of the ACA are now saying that the best answer is universal healthcare in the US. They are saying this while living in the presence of the colossal
cluster that is more government intrusion into healthcare in the form of the ACA.
I once counseled a the family member of a patient that had dementia. The family member was constantly arguing with the demented family member, attempting to convince her of the proper way to do things. This only led to further frustration because the demented patient never listened and ended up injured and sick and causing other issues.
I finally had to ask the family member, who is actually crazier, the person with dementia or the family member that argues with the person with dementia trying to talk sense into them?
I think I need to follow my own advice relative to those that continue to see government as the answer in medicine and delivery of care.
Turns out, we were right. The ACA has been a disaster, so much so that even the democrats and the president that signed the legislation don't want it to be implemented, and as such, continue to delay it.
So now, predictably, the same proponents of the ACA are now saying that the best answer is universal healthcare in the US. They are saying this while living in the presence of the colossal
cluster that is more government intrusion into healthcare in the form of the ACA.
I once counseled a the family member of a patient that had dementia. The family member was constantly arguing with the demented family member, attempting to convince her of the proper way to do things. This only led to further frustration because the demented patient never listened and ended up injured and sick and causing other issues.
I finally had to ask the family member, who is actually crazier, the person with dementia or the family member that argues with the person with dementia trying to talk sense into them?
I think I need to follow my own advice relative to those that continue to see government as the answer in medicine and delivery of care.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:53 am to samson'sseed
quote:Right
The ACA is a conservative plan...not a liberal plan.
quote:Clearly why they put forth this plan.
Liberals want single payer.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:53 am to samson'sseed
quote:
The ACA is a conservative plan...not a liberal plan.
How many republicans voted for the ACA again?
Posted on 2/11/14 at 9:54 am to Rex
quote:
Better than what we had before? Yes.
Then why do they keep postponing implementation, Rex?
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