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re: Odd goings on at the Jerusalem Temple AD30 to AD70.
Posted on 1/7/26 at 2:32 pm to 87PurpleandGold
Posted on 1/7/26 at 2:32 pm to 87PurpleandGold
quote:Yeah, I believe this allegorical, but I understand what you are saying.
God tested Abraham. He came close to sacrificing his own son. God stopped him at the last minute. However, when God saw his faith and the level to which he was willing to go, He blessed Abraham and his descendants forever.
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Posted on 1/7/26 at 3:39 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Jesus created time, and He entered into His creation within time.
Jesus, in His human nature, is subject to the passing of time. His sacrifice happened once in-time, and is not a perpetual event for all people to partake of. We partake in the benefits of His once-for-all-time sacrifice on the cross when we are enjoined to Him by faith. The benefits of the cross are perpetual, but the event, itself, happened once in the past.
Jesus was born, lived, died, resurrected, and ascended into Heaven during moments in time. That's what the incarnation was about: God entering into His own creation, subjecting Himself to the infirmities of a human nature except that He was without sin.
Those points you made may be accurate, from your point of view, but, His Sacrifice on the Cross is a Theological event that is Eternally Present and exists outside of Time. Jesus WAS fully Man and fully God. But His SACRIFICE is a theological event that is Eternally in the Present and exists outside of human understanding of Time.
I know that you are trying to impose your own definitional limitations on this Theological Event because it more comfortably fits within your personal Theology, but, I think that when we understand the true nature of this Theological Event, we can understand that it might not be accurate to place limits on how we define it.
God's Sacrifice of His Son is Eternally Present, just as God Himself is Eternally in the Present with no past and no future - just Presence.
If you'd prefer to think of that Event as happening in the "past", of course, I understand why you would like to do that, and, you are more than welcome to your opinion.
But for my thinking, I won't place limitations on God, nor will I assume that God created Time so that He could put His Son inside of that box, called Time.
This post was edited on 1/7/26 at 3:41 pm
Posted on 1/7/26 at 3:55 pm to Champagne
quote:I appreciate the response.
Those points you made may be accurate, from your point of view, but, His Sacrifice on the Cross is a Theological event that is Eternally Present and exists outside of Time. Jesus WAS fully Man and fully God. But His SACRIFICE is a theological event that is Eternally in the Present and exists outside of human understanding of Time.
I know that you are trying to impose your own definitional limitations on this Theological Event because it more comfortably fits within your personal Theology, but, I think that when we understand the true nature of this Theological Event, we can understand that it might not be accurate to place limits on how we define it.
God's Sacrifice of His Son is Eternally Present, just as God Himself is Eternally in the Present with no past and no future - just Presence.
If you'd prefer to think of that Event as happening in the "past", of course, I understand why you would like to do that, and, you are more than welcome to your opinion.
But for my thinking, I won't place limitations on God, nor will I assume that God created Time so that He could put His Son inside of that box, called Time.
My concern is two-fold:
1) I don't believe I'm placing limitations on God, but that He places limitations on Himself. Even the incarnation was a limitation of sorts, as the unbounded God took bounded flesh. His divine nature is unmixed and is unbounded still, but the death of Christ happened in His human nature, which is what the Eucharist is focused on: His human flesh and blood.
2) The Eucharist, as I believe the Bible teaches, is both a memorial of what Christ did in time on the cross, as well as a true and active means of grace, where Christ is present to our senses by faith as we partake in the bread and wine, and that the grace that is infused in us is a sanctifying grace, not a justifying or saving grace.
Protestants believe the Scriptures teach justification as a penal substitutionary sacrifice for sin, where the one time event of Christ on the cross was sufficient to pay for all of the sin-debt owed to all men throughout time, but that forgiveness of our debt is only received upon faith. Therefore, for the Christian, when he comes to faith in Christ, all his debt--past, present, and future--is forgiven due to the once-for-all sacrifice that Christ offered on the cross.
Because of this type of debt payment, we believe that it would be unnecessary for Christ's temporal death to be ever-present rather than a past-time event. The event accomplished all that was needed to accomplish, and it is only a matter of receiving the payment for sin through faith at that point.
In the Eucharist, then, Christ is really and truly, but spiritually, present to the faith of the Christian, but His body and blood remain located in Heaven, where He sits and rules right now. That's what we believe the Scriptures teach.
This post was edited on 1/7/26 at 3:59 pm
Posted on 1/7/26 at 4:21 pm to LemmyLives
The airing of the grievances.
Posted on 1/7/26 at 6:18 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
we believe that it would be unnecessary for Christ's temporal death to be ever-present rather than a past-time event.
You continue to believe that Jesus Christ's Sacrifice on the Cross was an event of past history, but, that's not completely accurate. To understand this Theological Event fully, one must understand that it exists IN TIME as a "past-time event", but, also, it exists in Eternal Presence outside of Time.
Presence.
Some call it Omnipresence - existing outside the boundaries of space and time, everywhere and all at the same time for Eternity.
This post was edited on 1/7/26 at 6:33 pm
Posted on 1/7/26 at 10:00 pm to Champagne
quote:But it is. The theological significance of the crucifixion goes beyond the temporal, but Jesus was crucified in time and space, once, in history. The historical event of the crucifixion happened 2,000 years ago, not yesterday and not today. Jesus is risen from the dead and sits in Heaven right now as King and Head of the Church. He is not being crucified right now.
You continue to believe that Jesus Christ's Sacrifice on the Cross was an event of past history, but, that's not completely accurate.
quote:It was ordained to occur in eternity past, but it happened in time and space in the body of Jesus, which did not exist in eternity past.
To understand this Theological Event fully, one must understand that it exists IN TIME as a "past-time event", but, also, it exists in Eternal Presence outside of Time.
Presence.
quote:Jesus in His divine nature is surely omnipresent, but in His human nature, He is not. His human body is like ours, or like ours will become in glory, but still limited. Jesus has two natures in His one divine person, and His human body is what was killed on the cross. His human body is not omnipresent, but seated in Heaven at this moment.
Some call it Omnipresence - existing outside the boundaries of space and time, everywhere and all at the same time for Eternity.
It sounds like you are denying the two distinct natures of Christ by your theology of the Eucharist.
Posted on 1/8/26 at 9:50 am to FooManChoo
quote:
It sounds like you are denying the two distinct natures of Christ by your theology of the Eucharist.
Have I mentioned The Eucharist? You and the other Protestant mentioned it.
I leave the Eucharist out of it in order to develop the conversation along ideas that leave out the Eucharist.
I'm talking about God's Sacrifice of His Son on The Cross, as a Theological Event and a Theological Reality. I accept your argument that we can describe it as an historical event that took place on one day in the past. But, based on a wider and more mysterious understanding, I contend that this Event has an Eternal quality that takes on God the Father's Eternal and Omni-Present Nature. In other words, this Sacrifice is not confined by Time and Space, it's quality and nature is that of Eternal Presence, just like God.
And I have a quote from the New Testament that really invites critical thinking along these lines. Of John's vision of Heaven, he said he saw:
“a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain” (Rev. 5:5-6).
Why would that image be in Heaven if it were just a past event that had taken place and belonged in space and time as past history? I contend that there's something more mysterious going on - it's a past historical event but it's more than that Theologically speaking. The Sacrifice has the quality and nature of God the Father, because it shares His Eternal Presence.
I contend that your interpretation is too narrow and too limiting and denies an essential quality of what the Godhead and Trinity has done for us. This is a mysterious reality that we delve into, so I don't blame anybody for not fully understanding the ideas involved in this conversation.
Posted on 1/8/26 at 9:56 am to FooManChoo
quote:
His human body is not omnipresent, but seated in Heaven at this moment.
I think you misspoke here. Jesus inhabits his Resurrected and Glorified Body in Heaven right now, just as it was on the Day of His Ascension into Heaven. That Glorified Body cannot in any way, shape or form be defined and characterized as a "human body", as you contend.
We do not fully comprehend what Christ's Glorified Body really is, and we don't fully comprehend what OUR OWN Glorified Body will be like for us. But, we can be certain that our Glorified Body is not our Human Body. Our human bodies will returned "ash to ash, dust to dust."
Posted on 1/8/26 at 10:17 am to RiverCityTider
quote:
But my problem is that Jesus explicitly says "this is my body..." and "Do this...". He could easily have taken the Protestant line and won the crowd back. Instead, he doubled down.
It is a difficult teaching.
Jesus also referred to Himself as a "door".
It's not a difficult teaching. What does it taste like when you take the Communion?
Posted on 1/8/26 at 2:11 pm to RiverCityTider
Doesn't the Talmud call Jesus a charlatan and says it's okay to lie to Christians/goyim?
Posted on 1/8/26 at 2:26 pm to Champagne
Actually in Revelation John said he saw a lamb looking as if it had been slain or something to that effect. (I’m paraphrasing because I’m at work on my phone.)
I take this to mean that he still bears the scars from his ordeal on the cross. I believe Jesus will have these visible scars and injuries throughout eternity as a reminder of the price he paid for us.
I take this to mean that he still bears the scars from his ordeal on the cross. I believe Jesus will have these visible scars and injuries throughout eternity as a reminder of the price he paid for us.
Posted on 1/8/26 at 2:37 pm to Champagne
quote:
but, also, it exists in Eternal Presence outside of Time.
Yep. It didn't just 'happen'. It's always happening.
Posted on 1/9/26 at 7:52 am to Canon951
quote:
I take this to mean that he still bears the scars from his ordeal on the cross. I believe Jesus will have these visible scars and injuries throughout eternity as a reminder of the price he paid for us.
So, Jesus is in Heaven in a Glorified Body bearing the scars and wounds of His Sacrifice?
So, His wounds are not healed? He will bear His wounds until the End of Time?
Why don't His wounds heal up?
His Sacrifice exists in God's Eternal Presence. His wounds won't heal because the Sacrifice exists outside of Time and Space and belongs in the mysterious Realm of God's Eternal Presence.
If His wounds were to heal, then the Sacrifice would be a human historical event that happened in the past, which it is, but as I've explained - it's much more than that.
That's why the Lamb is Eternally in Heaven, standing and slain - Crucified.
His Sacrifice exists beyond our understanding of Time and Space.
Now, I'm not sure whether Jesus's Glorified Body will bear these wounds for all Eternity or perhaps just until the End of Time and His Second Coming. I'd have to do more research on this.
But, I contend that we do know that after He was Risen, he showed Thomas His wounds. Those wounds never healed. I contend that Jesus is in Heaven in His Glorified Body that bears the unhealed wounds of His Sacrifice. And I contend that, if indeed, His Sacrifice was merely a past historical event that exists solely in the time of the past, His wounds would have healed by now.
This post was edited on 1/9/26 at 8:01 am
Posted on 1/9/26 at 8:03 am to Champagne
quote:You mentioned the Todah sacrifice, which you’ve said in the past was the basis or precursor to the Eucharist. Also, the always-present and ongoing sacrifice of Christ as you are describing is one of the key aspects of the Eucharist in Roman Catholic theology.
Have I mentioned The Eucharist? You and the other Protestant mentioned it.
I leave the Eucharist out of it in order to develop the conversation along ideas that leave out the Eucharist.
You are talking about the Eucharist, whether you use the word or not. I’m just cutting to the chase and talking about it directly.
quote:I don’t see evidence in the Scriptures for any sacrifice taking on an attribute of God. It is fine to talk about God that way, including Jesus’ divine nature, but actions are not persons, so therefore they do not have eternal qualities or attributes. While Jesus’ death provides an infinite value as a sacrifice, it does not happen infinitely. The value is not in the perpetual nature of the sacrifice, but the value in the one being sacrificed.
I'm talking about God's Sacrifice of His Son on The Cross, as a Theological Event and a Theological Reality. I accept your argument that we can describe it as an historical event that took place on one day in the past. But, based on a wider and more mysterious understanding, I contend that this Event has an Eternal quality that takes on God the Father's Eternal and Omni-Present Nature. In other words, this Sacrifice is not confined by Time and Space, its quality and nature is that of Eternal Presence, just like God.
quote:I contend that the Catholic use of that verse is misapplied and forced in order to justify a non-biblical concept.
And I have a quote from the New Testament that really invites critical thinking along these lines. Of John's vision of Heaven, he said he saw:
“a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain” (Rev. 5:5-6).
Why would that image be in Heaven if it were just a past event that had taken place and belonged in space and time as past history? I contend that there's something more mysterious going on - it's a past historical event but it's more than that Theologically speaking. The Sacrifice has the quality and nature of God the Father, because it shares His Eternal Presence.
Given Scripture emphasizes the one-time nature of the cross and Christ’s ongoing high priestly work of intercession rather than oblation, I see the passage in Revelation as a description of Christ’s identity, not of His ongoing actions. Hebrews in particular militates against the ongoing nature of the sacrifice of Christ in several verses, and the typical biblical interpretive hermeneutic is to use the more clear passages to interpret the less clear.
quote:I agree that my interpretation denies something, but it isn’t denying what the Godhead has done, but only a false claim about the nature of what they have done.
I contend that your interpretation is too narrow and too limiting and denies an essential quality of what the Godhead and Trinity has done for us. This is a mysterious reality that we delve into, so I don't blame anybody for not fully understanding the ideas involved in this conversation
I do not deny the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ, nor that the Father sent Him for that purpose, nor that the Spirit applies grace through it by faith. I deny the man-made teaching that man can offer Christ as a sacrifice (the priest re-presents the sacrifice in the mass) and that a propitiatory sacrifice happens in an ongoing way.
This post was edited on 1/9/26 at 8:05 am
Posted on 1/9/26 at 8:25 am to FooManChoo
quote:
I contend that the Catholic use of that verse is misapplied and forced in order to justify a non-biblical concept.
I contend that you are incorrect. We'll just have to let the people decide on who is correct, after careful thought and prayer.
Posted on 1/9/26 at 8:29 am to FooManChoo
quote:
a propitiatory sacrifice happens in an ongoing way.
We will let the people decide.
But, you do agree that Jesus Christ is in Heaven and that he still bears the wounds of His Crucifixion? His wounds have not healed? Do you agree with that?
I contend that they have not healed, and that's why some would argue that in a Theological sense, His Sacrifice can be described as "ongoing".
If you break your arm as a child, but, as an adult, your injury has never healed, would you say that your suffering is ongoing?
Posted on 1/9/26 at 8:30 am to Champagne
quote:I didn't misspeak. I was referring to His human nature, which includes a physical body.
I think you misspoke here. Jesus inhabits his Resurrected and Glorified Body in Heaven right now, just as it was on the Day of His Ascension into Heaven. That Glorified Body cannot in any way, shape or form be defined and characterized as a "human body", as you contend.
We do not fully comprehend what Christ's Glorified Body really is, and we don't fully comprehend what OUR OWN Glorified Body will be like for us. But, we can be certain that our Glorified Body is not our Human Body. Our human bodies will returned "ash to ash, dust to dust."
Omnipresence is a quality designated for the divine persons of the godhead, which means that it isn't a quality of a human being (or the human nature) to be omnipresent, as we experience each day in our own bodies that are not in two places at once.
Jesus has two natures, a divine one and a human one. In His humanity, He is not omnipresent because He has a human body (though it is glorified) that is limited and bound by physicality, at least in some respects. If you start mixing qualities of His human nature and His divine nature, you start moving away from historical, orthodox Christianity, into Christological heresy.
Posted on 1/9/26 at 8:45 am to FooManChoo
quote:
If you start mixing qualities of His human nature and His divine nature
I'm not sure that we agree what the essence of Jesus Christ truly is. He was Incarnated as Fully God and Fully Man. I stand by the Catholic Church's definition on this issue. I'm not intermixing His nature. Catholic clergy defined God's and Christ's nature almost 2,000 years ago. You yourself adhere to that Dogma, right? But I don't want to get side-tracked on this issue, because we both agree with the Roman Catholic Dogma on this issue of the Nature of the Trinity.
He is in Heaven, in his Glorified Body, which is not the same as his human body. Right? Maybe this is the key - we are struggling to fully comprehend the nature of His Glorified Body in Heaven. We know He was Incarnated as fully God and fully Human, but, how to we comprehend the full nature of His Glorified Body in Heaven.
And if Jesus still bears the wounds of His Sacrifice, and the wounds have not healed, why can't I argue that His Sacrifice is "ongoing" as you would use that word?
This post was edited on 1/9/26 at 9:36 am
Posted on 1/9/26 at 10:17 am to Champagne
quote:I believe that in His glorified body, His wounds are healed of pain or incompleteness, but that He may still bear the marks as a gift to His people as a reminder of what He has done for us.
We will let the people decide.
But, you do agree that Jesus Christ is in Heaven and that he still bears the wounds of His Crucifixion? His wounds have not healed? Do you agree with that?
I contend that they have not healed, and that's why some would argue that in a Theological sense, His Sacrifice can be described as "ongoing".
If you break your arm as a child, but, as an adult, your injury has never healed, would you say that your suffering is ongoing?
What I don't believe is that if He still bears marks, that they would be an evidence of an on-going or perpetual/eternal oblation. When Jesus showed His hands to the disciples after His resurrection, that was not an ongoing sacrifice for sin being presented to them, but a reminder and evidence of the finished act for their sake.
While I believe Jesus is raised incorruptible and no longer suffers but reigns in Heaven as King and High Priest, making intercession for His people (but not oblation), I do not think that is comparable to what you're describing.
When a child breaks his arm and it has never fully healed, then as an adult, he won't say that his arm is in a state of continual breaking. He says that it was broken that one time in history as a child and hasn't fully healed.
Catholicism doesn't teach that Christ's sacrifice happened once in the past--which is why you seem to be protesting to that language as incomplete, at best--but the effects of it continue on, but that the sacrifice, itself, is perpetual and re-presented in the Mass as a current and active act of oblation of Christ.
Posted on 1/9/26 at 10:30 am to Champagne
quote:Yes, I agree with the nature of the Trinity, including Christ's two natures, as defined by the Church in accordance with the teachings of sacred Scripture.
I'm not sure that we agree what the essence of Jesus Christ truly is. He was Incarnated as Fully God and Fully Man. I stand by the Catholic Church's definition on this issue. I'm not intermixing His nature. Catholic clergy defined God's and Christ's nature almost 2,000 years ago. You yourself adhere to that Dogma, right? But I don't want to get side-tracked on this issue, because we both agree with the Roman Catholic Dogma on this issue of the Nature of the Trinity.
quote:I agree that this is a sticking point, but I think this is informed by the nature of Christ's sacrifice, rather than the other way around, which is what I think Rome is doing, though I could be wrong about that.
He is in Heaven, in his Glorified Body, which is not the same as his human body. Right? Maybe this is the key - we are struggling to fully comprehend the nature of His Glorified Body in Heaven. We know He was Incarnated as fully God and fully Human, but, how to we comprehend the full nature of His Glorified Body in Heaven.
My contention is that Jesus did not discard His humanity in glory. He ascended into Heaven in His exaltation after the resurrection in a physical, tangible body. Recall that when He appeared, they disciples thought He was a spirit, but Jesus told them to touch Him, and He said that a spirit does not have flesh and bones like He does, and then He went on to eat food with them. He demonstrated that His glorified body was material, physical.
quote:Because it isn't. His sacrifice wasn't to have marks on His body, but to suffer the wrath of the Father for sin. He is not on the cross, but reins in Heaven, victorious over sin, Satan, and the grave. His suffering on the cross and death was an oblation for sin, but He is no longer there; He is in Heaven, no longer suffering for His people, but ruling and reigning at the right hand of the Father.
And if Jesus still bears the wounds of His Sacrifice, and the wounds have not healed, why can't I argue that His Sacrifice is "ongoing" as you would use that word?
Does Jesus suffer the wrath and curse of God on the cross right now? No, He does not. He is in Heaven, enjoying communion with the godhead and with the saints departed. He is not suffering right now.
Jesus said, "it is finished" on the cross. What you're describing is not a finished work, but an ongoing work. Hebrews speaks of Christ offering His one-time sacrifice and then sitting down at the right hand of the Father, not continuing to sacrifice. He died as a punishment (sacrifice) for sin, and yet right now He lives. So, if His death was the sacrifice, the sacrifice is over once He was resurrected from the dead.
There is no sense in which Jesus continues to suffer the wrath of God for the propitiation of sins in an on-going way. It was a once-for-all-time sacrifice that effectually removed the sins of those who receive it by faith.
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