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Message
re: "The opioid crisis"
Posted on 8/9/17 at 3:37 pm to 14&Counting
Posted on 8/9/17 at 3:37 pm to 14&Counting
quote:Sure, especially since that can be used as empowerment to help people fight the addiction.
All of this is true but I think ultimately it has to boil down to personal responsibility.
But at the end of the day, much of the blame game is useless, and rarely singular anyways.
2
Posted on 8/9/17 at 4:46 pm to buckeye_vol
I don't think one person in this thread mentioned suboxone. If someone is caught up in the addiction cycle these days and really WANTS to quit it is very easy these days, even from heroin and fentanal. Suboxone fully takes care of the physical pains of withdrawel. Thing is you have to want to quit and most people don't really want to quit because they like what the drugs do for them. It's not like suboxone is some sort of secret. It is easily available from a doctor.
That's why I can't see blaming the doctor or anyone else for ones addiction. If you want to quit you can.
That's why I can't see blaming the doctor or anyone else for ones addiction. If you want to quit you can.
Posted on 8/9/17 at 4:53 pm to boxcar willie
most people taking opiates are fully happy to be taking them for a wide variety of reasons. First off they really are the only thing that really helps for pain. Then some people take them as anti depressants and just to feel better. Some older people might take them so that they can be more involved with their grandkids. Or that when they get home from work they have enough energy to get up off the sofa and cut the grass, etc.
Posted on 8/9/17 at 5:00 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Ive had doctors who were insistent even when you said no
that's rare. Most doctors way under prescribe or won't prescribe opiates at all these days. You could go in with a broken arm and a lot of doctors won't prescribe an opiate these days.
Most doctors seem to be freaked out of prescribing opiates and things are probably going to get even worse with the media focus and the politicians getting involved and the campaign against them that is going on right now
Posted on 8/9/17 at 5:04 pm to SlowEasyConfident
So you think "being an adult" alleviates physical chemical dependency?
I guess mental illness, thyroid issues, and hormone imbalances are just weakness as well, right?
You're out of your depth, pal.
I guess mental illness, thyroid issues, and hormone imbalances are just weakness as well, right?
You're out of your depth, pal.
Posted on 8/9/17 at 5:06 pm to boxcar willie
quote:First or all, it's obviously not very easy since we are discussing an "opoid crisis." I mean we are talking about people doing heroin, and often on it. We should already have lower expectations for rational decision-making, even if will power is there.
If someone is caught up in the addiction cycle these days and really WANTS to quit it is very easy these days, even from heroin and fentanal. Suboxone fully takes care of the physical pains of withdrawel. T
In addition, people often hide their addiction, and here are a lot of social incentives that make it persist.
Finally, these treatments have high failure rates, and they are inherently risky because it requires treatment of another highly risky drug, albeit less risky than the one's they are addicted to.
This post was edited on 8/9/17 at 5:10 pm
Posted on 8/9/17 at 5:19 pm to Guava Jelly
quote:
So you think "being an adult" alleviates physical chemical dependency?
no but at some point an adult would realize they have a physical chemical dependency and weigh the options. Are they OK with having a physical chemical dependency? If yes, then problem solved. If not and they want to quit and are serious about it, then there are ways to do it. But you have to want it. That's the part where "being an adult" comes into play
Posted on 8/9/17 at 5:30 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
Finally, these treatments have high failure rates, .
that's the part where really wanting to quit comes into play. If you don't want to quit then no treatment is going to work.
quote:
they are inherently risky because it requires treatment of another highly risky drug, albeit less risky than the one's they are addicted to.
I don't find suboxone to be risky at all. It's not meant to be taken for a life time. You take it for 2-3 months gradually tapering back.
The thing is a lot of people just like taking drugs and have no intention or desire to quit. But you have to differentiate out pain pills from Heroin. With Heroin you really have no idea what you are injecting straight into you veins. There is no purity level or testing of the quality or proof of exactly what you are injecting. Very dangerous.
Posted on 8/9/17 at 5:58 pm to boxcar willie
quote:You don't need to find it risky; the research has found it already.
I don't find suboxone to be risky at all.
Wiki that links Lancet Study
quote:Buprenorphine vs methadone treatment: A review of evidence in both developed and developing worlds
Addiction experts in psychiatry, chemistry, pharmacology, forensic science, epidemiology, and the police and legal services engaged in delphic analysis regarding 20 popular recreational drugs. Buprenorphine was ranked 9th in dependence, 8th in physical harm, and 11th in social harm.
quote:I mean it's a highly potent opiod. It's dangerous and addictive in and of itself.
In countries where buprenorphine has been used widely for the treatment of opioid dependence, such as France, diversion has been a problem in 20% of recipients. Furthermore, there is evidence suggesting that buprenorphine diversion is an increasing problem.
Posted on 8/10/17 at 9:10 am to buckeye_vol
quote:
I mean it's a highly potent opiod. It's dangerous and addictive in and of itself.
it's not physically addicative. It is mentally addicative because it kind of peps you up and people like that.
I know a person kicked heavy opiate addictions twice in my life with the stuff and it made it easy. Once with 30 of the pills when they came in pill form and once with 60 of the strips. Like I said, it peps you up and makes the withdrawel from the opiates very tame, even for heavy addictions.
Then you taper back on the subs and you just feel a little flat for a while your body adjusts back to normal. The withdrawel from subs is that you just feel flat, but not the diareah, sweats, nausea, jumpy legs, and overall discomfort that you get from a straight opiate withdrawel
Posted on 8/10/17 at 9:20 am to boxcar willie
quote:People can become physically dependent on it. So you're statement is factually incorrect. It's obviously not close to the level of the drug addiction they are treating, but that doesn't make it somehow not potentially addictive either.
it's not physically addicative.
And you see to he describing the ideal treatment outcome, but we know that it's not a universal outcome though.
Posted on 8/10/17 at 9:23 am to buckeye_vol
So certain regions of the United States are genetically predisposed to opiate addiction?
I understand your point, and it's true on an individual level, but it doesn't explain the epidemic.
I understand your point, and it's true on an individual level, but it doesn't explain the epidemic.
Posted on 8/10/17 at 9:32 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
It's sad but at the same time these people are responsible for their own choices. My doctor got me hooked just doesn't cut it, be an adult.
quote:
This is just a totally ignorant statement, and it tells me you have never met anyone who became addicted to them.
The right, always looking to blame someone else
Posted on 8/10/17 at 9:38 am to Lima Whiskey
quote:Huh? The black market is still a market; therefore there are still environmental, economical, cultural, and logistical forces that impact the geographic and demographics distribution and variability.
So certain regions of the United States are genetically predisposed to opiate addiction?
Posted on 8/10/17 at 9:41 am to buckeye_vol
quote:
People can become physically dependent on it.
Dependency and addiction are not synonymous. Dependence is a component of addiction.
Posted on 8/10/17 at 9:42 am to buckeye_vol
We always have to have something to "fight".
Marijuana is being slowly legalized. Now we have demonized opiates. I'm not saying opiates are without issue. There are junkies everywhere. But how many addicts will become addicted to something? Any numbers on this? Anyway to study this? Are opiates just what this person gravitated to or was exposed to? Would they have become an alcoholic? Meth head?
Addiction is rooted in the person as well. There is a reason I can watch a football game, have 4-5 beers and hand my wife the keys. While my neighbor will pound until he falls asleep? Or some people would go on a three day bender.
Opiates just work for what they are prescribed. We've tried to replace them and can't. They have little to no side effects. Just drowsy and can't shite and relieve pain. Everything else causes other problems. Bleeding, cardiac issues, renal failure, liver failure, ulcers, seizures.
Opiates have their place. It's not in every medicine cabinet. But taking them OUT of every medicine cabinet is having consequences we are just beginning to see. Heroin, fentanyl, pharmacies robbed, hospitals robbed. It's only been a year or two since Vicodin was made triplicate.
My one anecdotal example. Had a guy come back after admission. This dude had a brain bleed. Fortunately it was small otherwise he'd have died quickly. His pain was managed with Dilaudid IV while in the hospital up to his moment of discharge. When discharged? Tramadol...? He was given IV Dilaudid probably at 5am and was sent home by 9-10 AM. After a day of pain he gave up and came to an ER. His tests are normal. He was admitted to monitor and pain control. That's another 5-figure hospital stay. Was it necessary? Could he have stayed home had a doctor not been afraid and looking over his shoulder to prescribe Vicodin? Did he forget his triplicate pad and just say frick it?
Are there junkies? Yes.
Is everybody a junkie? Nope.
Do opiates relieve pain? Yep.
Did something need to be done? Yep.
Does prohibition ever work? TBD...
Marijuana is being slowly legalized. Now we have demonized opiates. I'm not saying opiates are without issue. There are junkies everywhere. But how many addicts will become addicted to something? Any numbers on this? Anyway to study this? Are opiates just what this person gravitated to or was exposed to? Would they have become an alcoholic? Meth head?
Addiction is rooted in the person as well. There is a reason I can watch a football game, have 4-5 beers and hand my wife the keys. While my neighbor will pound until he falls asleep? Or some people would go on a three day bender.
Opiates just work for what they are prescribed. We've tried to replace them and can't. They have little to no side effects. Just drowsy and can't shite and relieve pain. Everything else causes other problems. Bleeding, cardiac issues, renal failure, liver failure, ulcers, seizures.
Opiates have their place. It's not in every medicine cabinet. But taking them OUT of every medicine cabinet is having consequences we are just beginning to see. Heroin, fentanyl, pharmacies robbed, hospitals robbed. It's only been a year or two since Vicodin was made triplicate.
My one anecdotal example. Had a guy come back after admission. This dude had a brain bleed. Fortunately it was small otherwise he'd have died quickly. His pain was managed with Dilaudid IV while in the hospital up to his moment of discharge. When discharged? Tramadol...? He was given IV Dilaudid probably at 5am and was sent home by 9-10 AM. After a day of pain he gave up and came to an ER. His tests are normal. He was admitted to monitor and pain control. That's another 5-figure hospital stay. Was it necessary? Could he have stayed home had a doctor not been afraid and looking over his shoulder to prescribe Vicodin? Did he forget his triplicate pad and just say frick it?
Are there junkies? Yes.
Is everybody a junkie? Nope.
Do opiates relieve pain? Yep.
Did something need to be done? Yep.
Does prohibition ever work? TBD...
This post was edited on 8/10/17 at 9:52 am
Posted on 8/10/17 at 9:43 am to the808bass
quote:Of course. But if people can become physically dependent then that increases the likelihood of addiction.
Dependency and addiction are not synonymous. Dependence is a component of addiction.
Posted on 8/10/17 at 9:44 am to buckeye_vol
Eh. For class III narcotic or higher, sure.
Posted on 8/10/17 at 9:49 am to LSU alum wannabe
quote:I get this. I'm not demonizing a whole class of substances that have real medicinal uses, but they are more risky than other classes--especially because of the availability of the more potent and more addictive substances within the classes.
Now we have demonized opiates. I'm not saying opiates are without issue
I'm strong against the WOD, which makes these problems worse. At the same time, I'm not going to pretend Heroin is a comparably risky to orally taking opium like people did for much of history.
Posted on 8/10/17 at 9:54 am to the808bass
quote:Well yeah. But of course because it's the government classifying them, it's not always empirically driven (e.g., marijuana).
Eh. For class III narcotic or higher, sure.
But suboxone is a class III drug. And I'm not pretending it's anything like heroin, or an ineffective treatment option.
But the poster is acting like it's completely effective without risks, which is why addicts have no excuse. I think that's a little extreme.
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