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Message
re: The True Fascists
Posted on 5/17/17 at 4:27 pm to Salmon
Posted on 5/17/17 at 4:27 pm to Salmon
quote:
fascism has always been considered to the far right, while communism has been considered to the far left
That's true, but I've always been skeptical about it. Russia is a socialist country, but it's very far from being left wing socially. People just have gotten stick in a ww2 mentality of labeling governments.
0
Posted on 5/17/17 at 4:29 pm to ibleedprplngld
The 1930s fascists were social conservatives. Sure they loved big government, but to say fascism was a liberal movement is revisionist.
Posted on 5/17/17 at 4:31 pm to acrossenemylinesmofo
quote:
The True Fascists
Sounds Pretty Right-Wingish to me.
1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights
3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause
4.The supremacy of the military/avid militarism
5.Rampant sexism
6.A controlled mass media
7.Obsession with national security
8.Religion and ruling elite tied together
9.Power of corporations protected
10.Power of labor suppressed or eliminated
11.Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts
12.Obsession with crime and punishment
13.Rampant cronyism and corruption
14.Fraudulent elections
There are exactly 2 things you listed that can be applied to modern day conservatives.
quote:
1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism
quote:
7.Obsession with national security
As for the rest, it's pretty elementary to recite the liberal playbook of talking points as it relates to conservatism.
I'd also argue that a great deal of those items apply to today's democrats.
Posted on 5/17/17 at 4:33 pm to ibleedprplngld
quote:
suppression of opposing views
Didn't Trump want to revoke press passes from media outlets criticizing him? And this board agreed with him?
Posted on 5/17/17 at 4:33 pm to acrossenemylinesmofo
quote:
1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism
Fair enough
quote:
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights
Communists killed millions, put people in forced labor camps in Siberia, and monitored the population with snitches, spies, etc.
quote:
3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause
Bolsheviks did this with the Tsars and anyone who supported them.
quote:
4.The supremacy of the military/avid militarism
Soviets anyone?
quote:
5.Rampant sexism
Don't really know where to go with that one or how it is provable in either case.
quote:
6.A controlled mass media
Communists are the masters of this.
quote:
7.Obsession with national security
Hello CHEKA secret police (and German STASI).
quote:
8.Religion and ruling elite tied together
Communists outlawed religion. They killed Christians and burned churches all throughout the Soviet Union (especially in Ukraine). Eventually, people were forced to disavow any religious beliefs or be killed. China did the same thing.
quote:
9.Power of corporations protected
Communists don't believe in corporations or any sort of free enterprise.
quote:
10.Power of labor suppressed or eliminated
I wouldn't want to be a laborer in the Soviet Union either.
quote:
11.Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts
Not sure either system does this. Hitler suppressed Jews, but he wasn't necessarily against "intellectuals." He had PhD's surrounding him. I am sure the communists "purged" intellectuals they didn't like.
quote:
12.Obsession with crime and punishment
Meh, it could be argued for the far left as well.
quote:
13.Rampant cronyism and corruption
Kommisars in Russia were pretty corrupt.
quote:
14.Fraudulent elections
There are no elections in a communist society.
Posted on 5/17/17 at 4:48 pm to Wolfhound45
quote:
Shut up you filthy prog. We will be better off with you in the camps
Fact
Posted on 5/17/17 at 5:53 pm to AUstar
You started out with a great argument tying some of these characteristics with a far-left ideology but from number 7-14 you seemed to confuse yourself from the original intent of your argument, almost even supporting my post.
I do agree that these characteristics are not exclusive to both extremes but taken as a whole it would describe a far-right ideology. Again my point is not to defend either side of the spectrum but point out the traditional understanding that fascism is a far-right ideology.
I do agree that these characteristics are not exclusive to both extremes but taken as a whole it would describe a far-right ideology. Again my point is not to defend either side of the spectrum but point out the traditional understanding that fascism is a far-right ideology.
This post was edited on 5/17/17 at 5:55 pm
Posted on 5/17/17 at 6:08 pm to Speckhunter2012
quote:
Conservatives and Libertarians are much closer in their views as are they to any other.
Only in words, not deeds. Those that claim the mantle of conservative haven't been small government in my lifetime.
Posted on 5/17/17 at 6:16 pm to ibleedprplngld
There aren't really true fascists in America. Fascism was inspired by the Syndicalists and other specifically anti-material philosophies from the Fin de Siecle era.
The early fascists were defined by the fascist negations, namely being anti-communist, anti-liberal (as in liberal democracy) and anti-conservative (anti-monarchy and the Church). In practice, fascists practiced some version of nationalization, as Hitler nationalized some 500 companies while Italy under Mussolini had state ownership rates second only to the USSR.
The Iberian fascists were more lenient to the Church, while the Austrofascists took on a corporatist model at times.
The mistake Americans continue to make is to assume right-wing in America means the same thing as it did when the term Fascism developed. It does not, and this weird insecurity that conservatives about being called Fascist is very stupid. The American right wing is a version of the Center-right, with emphasis on liberal democracy as well market capitalism. The American left wing is pretty much the left wing side of the center-right, as truly left wing ideas in America are met with widespread disdain.
The drive to equate fascists with communists is also a function of the Cold War, and in practice and in ideology they were both very different.
The early fascists were defined by the fascist negations, namely being anti-communist, anti-liberal (as in liberal democracy) and anti-conservative (anti-monarchy and the Church). In practice, fascists practiced some version of nationalization, as Hitler nationalized some 500 companies while Italy under Mussolini had state ownership rates second only to the USSR.
The Iberian fascists were more lenient to the Church, while the Austrofascists took on a corporatist model at times.
The mistake Americans continue to make is to assume right-wing in America means the same thing as it did when the term Fascism developed. It does not, and this weird insecurity that conservatives about being called Fascist is very stupid. The American right wing is a version of the Center-right, with emphasis on liberal democracy as well market capitalism. The American left wing is pretty much the left wing side of the center-right, as truly left wing ideas in America are met with widespread disdain.
The drive to equate fascists with communists is also a function of the Cold War, and in practice and in ideology they were both very different.
Posted on 5/17/17 at 6:19 pm to acrossenemylinesmofo
quote:
Again my point is not to defend either side of the spectrum but point out the traditional understanding that fascism is a far-right ideology.
LINK
I can appreciate your honesty in pointing out what traditional understanding says, however, read some of these wonderful quotes by Herr Goebbels.
If NAZI's are Socialist and/or Fascist as per nearly everyone on here would agree, then you will love what he says about Capitalism. Sounds pretty damn Left Wing to me as in Anti Capitalist, Anti Individual Freedoms and subservient to the State.
Again, there is nothing to the Right (More Individual Freedom and Less Government Control) in any of his beliefs that I can see.
Posted on 5/17/17 at 6:21 pm to Iosh
quote:
quote:
Now, anyone who understands history and government will know that associating fascism with modern day conservatism is pretty far fetched.
In 2012 I would've agreed with you
How big of an idiot does one have to be to see the behavior of the leftists and then say "Oh well fascism is just like the conservative right."
Posted on 5/17/17 at 6:24 pm to Speckhunter2012
quote:
Again, there is nothing to the Right (More Individual Freedom and Less Government Control) in any of his beliefs that I can see.
In the large political spectrum, right wing refers to authoritarian, conservative governments, such as monarchy. There is a large different in the ideas you bring up, which are a function of classic liberalism, and for that reason are considered more or less in the center right and center left. Fascism is generally defined as right wing because its emphasis on nationalism, which is one of the key differences between fascism and communism, which focuses on internationalism.
Posted on 5/17/17 at 6:34 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
In the large political spectrum, right wing refers to authoritarian, conservative governments, such as monarchy.
So monarchy is right next to Libertarianism as far as individual liberties?
We can say this and point to that but in the end it is as simple as LEAST amount of Individual Freedom vs the MOST amount of Individual Freedom.
We can have all of these discussions over what Fascism means compared to Socialism and Communism ad nauseum.
I maintain that the freedom of the Individual and it's citizenry should be the standard of measurement when trying to prove a Right Wing or a Left Wing government.
Posted on 5/17/17 at 6:41 pm to Speckhunter2012
quote:
So monarchy is right next to Libertarianism as far as individual liberties?
No it's not right next to it. It's actually fairly far away. Libertarianism is mostly center right or center left, depending on the version.
quote:
I maintain that the freedom of the Individual and it's citizenry should be the standard of measurement when trying to prove a Right Wing or a Left Wing government.
That's mostly the American definition. Versions of anarchism that split off Marxism at the First International are very much about individual freedom. They would almost certainly be described as left wing because of the context in which it operates.
Thus the context is very important. And these designations can have multiple interpretations and crossovers. But in general fascism is a version of authoritarianism that most resembles monarchy with the insistence on the nation. Communism is described as its opposite because it is international. Free market capitalism is much more left wing than monarchy, and the context of individual freedom, especially in America, is discussed in the capitalistic context. Hence why capitalism generally is described as center right and center left.
Posted on 5/17/17 at 7:45 pm to Snipe
I know exactly how this will be received by the true believers, but I couldn't care less.
The GOP has been boisterously obstructionist for years—almost forcing the government to shut down, to default, and refusing to hold a confirmation process for Scalia's vacant seat for about a year are a couple of prominent examples. Currently, the White House, House of Representatives, and Senate are republican-controlled, and five of the nine Supreme Court justices are republican appointees. I'm not injecting my personal politics, here...these are actual, objective facts.
Lots of conservatives have opposed Trump from the beginning, and now even prominent party members are turning against him.
If he can't survive today's political climate in which he is aligned with every branch of the government and half of the population, then there isn't any world in which a liberal conspiracy could possibly undermine him to this same degree.
Trump is a republican, but he is not representative of the party. He made his bed and he's going to have to sleep in it. Rather than burning calories to defend him as if his successes and failures are your successes and failures, why not take this opportunity to refocus the GOP into the party that best resembles your personal values and beliefs? His failure is not your failure. Even if the worst case scenario happens, he's impeached, and removed from the office, the GOP will still control the White House, Congress, and Supreme Court.
The GOP has been boisterously obstructionist for years—almost forcing the government to shut down, to default, and refusing to hold a confirmation process for Scalia's vacant seat for about a year are a couple of prominent examples. Currently, the White House, House of Representatives, and Senate are republican-controlled, and five of the nine Supreme Court justices are republican appointees. I'm not injecting my personal politics, here...these are actual, objective facts.
Lots of conservatives have opposed Trump from the beginning, and now even prominent party members are turning against him.
If he can't survive today's political climate in which he is aligned with every branch of the government and half of the population, then there isn't any world in which a liberal conspiracy could possibly undermine him to this same degree.
Trump is a republican, but he is not representative of the party. He made his bed and he's going to have to sleep in it. Rather than burning calories to defend him as if his successes and failures are your successes and failures, why not take this opportunity to refocus the GOP into the party that best resembles your personal values and beliefs? His failure is not your failure. Even if the worst case scenario happens, he's impeached, and removed from the office, the GOP will still control the White House, Congress, and Supreme Court.
Posted on 5/17/17 at 8:06 pm to TxTiger82
quote:
Sure they loved big government, but to say fascism was a liberal movement is revisionist.
What are you comparing? The liberalism of today with the conservatism of half a century ago?
You may be comparing apples to oranges.
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