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Message
re: Fill me in on our draft pick, i'm lost
Posted on 5/26/14 at 11:59 pm to TigerinATL
Posted on 5/26/14 at 11:59 pm to TigerinATL
Cap space to get a SF, Noel, 10th pick > Jrue, Pierre.
2
Posted on 5/27/14 at 1:47 am to JabarkusRussell
You're probably not going to make much headway on a board with an inflated opinion of Holiday. Essentially, two lottery picks were traded for a statistically below average NBA PG. Most of the people on here will respond to that by appealing to intangibles or a big-shot All Star appearance, and by denigrating the potential of the two lottery picks in question.
Posted on 5/27/14 at 2:57 am to Dead Mike
quote:
You're probably not going to make much headway on a board with an inflated opinion of Holiday. Essentially, two lottery picks were traded for a statistically below average NBA PG. Most of the people on here will respond to that by appealing to intangibles or a big-shot All Star appearance, and by denigrating the potential of the two lottery picks in question.
Holiday is not a "below average" point guard. I find it funny that the ones that rag on holiday(who is maybe 1-2 years old than most of them) hype up draft picks as some sort of cure all.
Putting down Holiday while holding the unkwown in such high esteem is how fools operate.
Posted on 5/27/14 at 3:01 am to JabarkusRussell
quote:
Cap space to get a SF, Noel, 10th pick > Jrue, Pierre.
Which SF would we have targeted that's worth that cap space?
Noel hasn't played an NBA minute
10th pick isn't exactly worth throwing a parade over.
Posted on 5/27/14 at 9:56 am to LSUDairyhick
quote:A #6 and #10 pick have zero guarantees that you'll get just 1 All Star player, whether it's a deserved all star player or not. Especially the #10 pick.
Completely disagree. Although he had some good stats, Jrue was only an all-star because Rose and Rondo were hurt that year. He is a "middle-of-the-pack" point guard IMO. This trade will haunt us for years.
Posted on 5/27/14 at 9:59 am to Dead Mike
quote:
denigrating the potential of the two lottery picks in question.
Before the 2013 draft I wanted to draft KCP at #6, not because I thought he was a great player, I saw him as most likely a bench scoring guard a la Marcus Thornton, OJ Mayo, etc. I wanted KCP because the draft we traded out of wasn't very good and it deserves to be denigrated. As for the #10 pick in this draft, again I see it as a C player.
If you don't trade for Holiday it looks like you're just shifting holes in the roster, and most of those holes are not getting plugged with starting quality players. Besides the people unrealistically arguing no Holiday = Wiggins, the only good starter I've seen the 2 lottery picks lead to is trading one for Asik.
When I look at the moves that have been made and think what I would like to have done differently and how it would solve problems, the Holiday deal isn't at the top of the list.
1) The Minnesota pick should have higher so you draft Drummond.
2) Gordon should have been S&Ted for Jared Dudley and a draft pick.
Those 2 situations playing out differently solve all kinds of problems. What would undoing the Holiday trade actually solve? Certainly nothing like the 2 above would.
Posted on 5/27/14 at 10:11 am to LosLobos111
quote:
12. J. Teague(Tossup but I'd rather jrue)
You have lost your mind.
quote:
11. G. Dragic(jrue is a better defender but they're close)
Maybe it was close before the past year, but Dragic took the next step. He's better.
quote:
19. R. Rubio(lol NO)
Why lol? Jrue might be a better scorer but rubio averages more assists, rebounds, and most importantly...LESS TURNOVERS. Oh, and they are the same age.
quote:
9. R. Rondo(Jrue is a better scorer)
Yes, but Rondo is better.
quote:
14. K. Walker(took a step back)
I guess going to the playoffs is a step back? Finally gave him someone to play with (AJ) and they make the playoffs. I know its the east, but step back??
Posted on 5/27/14 at 11:33 am to LSUDairyhick
quote:Holiday is better than Rubio, let's be serious here.
Why lol? Jrue might be a better scorer but rubio averages more assists, rebounds, and most importantly...LESS TURNOVERS. Oh, and they are the same age
He's a better offensive player, could be wrong, but I'm guessing most would agree with that.
He's a better defensive player, no one in their right mind would disagree with that.
End result is Holiday is rather clearly better than Rubio.
Posted on 5/27/14 at 11:51 am to LosLobos111
quote:
Which SF would we have targeted that's worth that cap space?
Make a trade. Harrison Barnes received little playing time with the addition of AI so he became expendable.
C-Davis
PF-Noel
SF-Barnes
SG-Gordon
PG-2014 Pick
quote:
Noel hasn't played an NBA minute
Neither did Blake Griffin. People are seriously undervaluing Noel. If he has a Mutumbo-like career with little offense, he was still worth drafting.
This post was edited on 5/27/14 at 11:53 am
Posted on 5/27/14 at 12:16 pm to JabarkusRussell
quote:
Holiday is not a "below average" point guard.
In comparison with the other starting point guards he's average at best (IMO a little below average).
1. C. Paul
2. T. Parker
3. S. Curry
4. R. Westbrook
5. D. Lillard
6. J. Wall
7. K. Irving
8. D. Rose (when healthy-JH not healthy so fair)
9. R. Rondo
10. D. Williams
11. G. Dragic
12. J. Teague
13. E. Bledsoe
14. K. Walker
15. M. Conley
16. K. Lowry (some would consider him a 2)
17. M. Ellis
18. T. Lawson
19. R. Rubio
20. B. Jennings
21. B. Knight
22. MCW(prob not yet, but the potential is there)
I'd say he's between 16-20. That's below the average. You CANNOT argue he is top 12.
Posted on 5/27/14 at 12:33 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
When I look at the moves that have been made and think what I would like to have done differently and how it would solve problems, the Holiday deal isn't at the top of the list.
2 Things:
1) Holiday is catching heat due to recency bias. Evans had a great last month, Holiday hasn't played since January. Holiday is the better player
2) It's hard (obviously
) for me to embrace Holiday/Evans moves with Gordon still on the roster. Any pair out of that trio would be fine with me. But adding the third guy hampers their ability to stay flexible (via picks, cap space, or tradeable assets) around Davis. Posted on 5/27/14 at 7:20 pm to LosLobos111
quote:
Holiday is not a "below average" point guard. I find it funny that the ones that rag on holiday(who is maybe 1-2 years old than most of them) hype up draft picks as some sort of cure all.
Putting down Holiday while holding the unkwown in such high esteem is how fools operate.
Holiday is statistically a below-average *starting* point guard. Based on his PER, in 2012 he was the 33rd rated PG, in 2013 he was the 19th rated PG and this year, he's the 15th rated PG without taking into account Dragic (and with Rose injured). Maybe statistical comparisons don't do the guy justice, but then the entire case that Holiday is an above average starting PG rests on subjective analysis of his intangibles, and I don't really see anyone without a rooting interest in the Pelicans making that case at this point. An All-Star selection in a depleted Eastern Conference doesn't really make that case.
Draft picks are not a cure all, but they are the best bet for a struggling franchise to find affordable talent provided that a competent GM is making the selections. Maybe both of our lottery selections would've busted, but I'm skeptical about passing on those opportunities for a starter with a pedestrian performance so far.
This post was edited on 5/27/14 at 7:21 pm
Posted on 5/27/14 at 7:58 pm to Dead Mike
quote:
Holiday is statistically a below-average *starting* point guard. Based on his PER, in 2012 he was the 33rd rated PG, in 2013 he was the 19th rated PG and this year, he's the 15th rated PG without taking into account Dragic (and with Rose injured). Maybe statistical comparisons don't do the guy justice, but then the entire case that Holiday is an above average starting PG rests on subjective analysis of his intangibles, and I don't really see anyone without a rooting interest in the Pelicans making that case at this point. An All-Star selection in a depleted Eastern Conference doesn't really make that case.
PER is a flawed statistic for PGs. You're missing that he's arguably one of the best defenders at his position(which PER doesn't really account for)
His Per 36 the past 2 years is:
2012: 17.0 PPG 7.7 AST 4.0 REB 1.5 STL 37% 3PFG 44% FG
2013: 15.3 PPG 8.5 AST 4.5 REB 1.8 STL 45 % FG 39 %3PTFG
There's nothing "below average" about those numbers.
It wouldn't have been much better for this franchise to have noel burning 3.5 mil on the bench and hoping we'll draft a stud this year(while also hoping both pan out in 2 years) That doesn't seem smart.
Certainty>>>>>>>>Uncertainty
This post was edited on 5/27/14 at 8:00 pm
Posted on 5/27/14 at 8:31 pm to LosLobos111
Posted on 5/27/14 at 9:11 pm to GynoSandberg
Sorry i'm not joining the "hate on jrue" campaign
Posted on 5/27/14 at 9:19 pm to LSUDairyhick
quote:
You have lost your mind.
Please elaborate
quote:
Maybe it was close before the past year, but Dragic took the next step. He's better.
Still can't play D so no
quote:
Why lol? Jrue might be a better scorer but rubio averages more assists, rebounds, and most importantly...LESS TURNOVERS. Oh, and they are the same age.
Shel explained this,are you gnarkills alter?
quote:
Yes, but Rondo is better.
By how much?
quote:
I guess going to the playoffs is a step back? Finally gave him someone to play with (AJ) and they make the playoffs. I know its the east, but step back??
Has not really improved in any category
quote:
He has unteachable physical ability (Dirty Harry reflexes, quickness, bee-line speed), but his production has flat-lined.
Walker showed zero statistical growth from his second season to this one. His scoring average went unchanged, down to the decimal (17.7 points per game). His PER, true shooting percentage and assist rate all slid, too.
He's inefficient and his outside shot is less than mediocre.
Posted on 5/28/14 at 2:18 am to LosLobos111
quote:
Certainty>>>>>>>>Uncertainty
I don't think it was a bad trade or anything. But the Noel being hurt argument just doesn't hold much weight. Especially when Holiday missed over half the season injured.
You are basically saying you'd prefer to pay Holiday 10m for less than a half season, than paying 3.5 to Noel not to play. Even though, Noel probably could have played half the season, if Philly wasn't holding him out.
Posted on 5/28/14 at 5:15 am to brmark70816
quote:
You are basically saying you'd prefer to pay Holiday 10m for less than a half season, than paying 3.5 to Noel not to play. Even though, Noel probably could have played half the season, if Philly wasn't holding him out.
Nah I highly doubt philly could've played him.
Holiday is a proven guard that was playing very well before having an injury that no one could've expected to happen(shite happens right?). He probably could've come back but with all the injuries we were going nowhere anyway.
Noel is not the case
I'm not sure why so many think us taking noel would've "turned the franchise around" when it's doubtful he'd make an impact until 2+ years down the road.
Holiday's talent and prior history dictate he's worth 10 mil a year. Is it really worth taking a gamble on a center that's had an ACL tear and a lottery ticket at the 10 spot?
I doubt we'd be having this conversation if Jrue played 65-70 games or so.
People are getting to caught up in the glamour of a draft pick imo.
This post was edited on 5/28/14 at 5:16 am
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