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re: What are people living on?
Posted on 4/3/22 at 8:52 pm to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 4/3/22 at 8:52 pm to SlowFlowPro
Living wage is such a thrown about term these days to evoke an emotion. On a low level, we say we want people just have a house/place to live and food. At a higher level, people refuse to acknowledge that the standard living/quality of living continues to increase every decade.
Median house size in the 1980s was ~1600 sq ft, today it's ~2400sq ft. There's been a societal shift in people living with other people. The average household size has declined over that same period. Either less children or many more people now are spending their resources on studio/1 br housing, instead of pooling resources with multiple roommates.
Add to that communication costs with cell phones, tvs, internet, cable that didn't exist decades ago. Consumerism with daily Starbucks, Uber eats, door dash etc.
Vehicles that have more tech than ever before and while also having to be got/epa regulated emissions.
You could go on and on with countless examples.
The point to all this is do we need government price/wage controls to allow people to meet the new standard of living? Or do people who are in low skill and entry level jobs need to adjust their expectations to what kind of living they can afford to have?
Median house size in the 1980s was ~1600 sq ft, today it's ~2400sq ft. There's been a societal shift in people living with other people. The average household size has declined over that same period. Either less children or many more people now are spending their resources on studio/1 br housing, instead of pooling resources with multiple roommates.
Add to that communication costs with cell phones, tvs, internet, cable that didn't exist decades ago. Consumerism with daily Starbucks, Uber eats, door dash etc.
Vehicles that have more tech than ever before and while also having to be got/epa regulated emissions.
You could go on and on with countless examples.
The point to all this is do we need government price/wage controls to allow people to meet the new standard of living? Or do people who are in low skill and entry level jobs need to adjust their expectations to what kind of living they can afford to have?
0
Posted on 4/3/22 at 8:53 pm to doya2
quote:
What are people living on?
I think most people in the US are living on soda, chicken nuggets and crippling anxiety.
Posted on 4/3/22 at 8:54 pm to Korkstand
quote:
What is the point of an economy if not to support a society?
You mean a government, right? The economy isn't about supporting all citizens above some arbitrary (and constantly moving) line you value.
quote:
We can't talk about people surviving (or not) without it being a socioeconomic discussion.
We're actually a LONG way from having this discussion without hyperbole that you've built into your world view and "argument".
If your argument had real merit, we wouldn't be facing the aforementioned illegal immigration, especially at the insane rate that we do.
quote:
So when the economy fails the society, is it rational to just let it all burn?
What are you talking about?
I imagine this is similar to the ones I saw yesterday about housing pricing issues. Hint: these are typically problems created by government and not any sort of state of freedom (aka capitalism).
"On closer scrutiny, it turns out that many of today's problems are a result of yesterday's solutions."
- Thomas Sowell
Posted on 4/3/22 at 8:55 pm to Ricardo
quote:
If people legitimately think someone making a living wage at a fast food joint is bad for the economy then we shouldn't have fast food joints.
We won't because nobody will be willing to pay the prices needed to sustain the employees making $22/hr or most of those jobs will be automated. Same thing with Lowes, Walgreens etc. Fast food is just a common example.
Posted on 4/3/22 at 8:56 pm to doya2
So if Biden and the dems quit giving out money, less of these scumbags can fly and perhaps flying may become pleasant again?
Posted on 4/3/22 at 8:57 pm to OKBoomerSooner
quote:
Most businesses can find employees
Manufacturing
Trucking
Warehouses
Construction
Front end office work
Trade professions
Labor intensive jobs are on the decline because it’s easier to get government assistance and drive randomly for Uber to fill gaps than it is to wake up and work everyday.
Take away the outrageous government assistance we provide in this country and you grow the labor pool.
Some of these jobs absolutely have to be done and done daily as mindless manual labor. And those jobs, while important and necessary, have a low value cost and so are often paid less.
They are often filled by those needing a second chance or those who didn’t have other opportunities. That’s capitalism’s solution. It’s not government intervention. It’s the ability to pay laborers even those who occupy the lowest skill and lowest value still get paid and still get to earn their way into a better life for themselves or for their future generations.
For some reason this path has become demonized to the point where anyone associated with running these types of jobs is harassed and the labor pool that used to fill them hates them.
Our society as a whole is so unbelievably comfortable and soft and complacent we legitimately think the inability to buy consumer garbage at msrp means you’re under the poverty line.
Dwell on that for a moment. That’s poverty in this country. That’s what we’re arguing about. Whether or not we are doing enough for the people whom get a free house and phone and medical care and food and spending money for free with no strings attached.
Bottom 10% of America is top 2% of the rest of the world. And the bottom of American society is better taken care of by their government and their country than most other people on earth.
That should be celebrated. Instead it’s never enough. We’ve built an entire globonational machine dedicated to making sure no one is ever satisfied or happy with what they have. And it is a ruthlessly efficient and powerful machine.
Poverty in America is still upperclass compared to the rest of earth. We are so unbelievably lucky and blessed to live where we do with the freedoms we have and we’re going to sacrifice it all because we’re too stupid and egotistical to just admit how great we have it.
Everyone employed in this country for the last two decades should be thanking God every day they’re lucky enough to be living in and employed in the greatest and richest and most influential and most free country on earth if not in human history and instead all we did as a society is snivel and whine and complain like petulant spoiled children and slowly but methodically killed ourselves and sacrificed the happiness and future of the next generation just so we can show them what true misery is.
The absolutely disgusting mentality taking hold in America that success can and should come without effort or sacrifice and worse that failure is anyones fault but yours is absolutely insane and leads to one and only one end.
This post was edited on 4/3/22 at 9:15 pm
Posted on 4/3/22 at 9:07 pm to fallguy_1978
quote:
We won't because nobody will be willing to pay the prices needed to sustain the employees making $22/hr or most of those jobs will be automated. Same thing with Lowes, Walgreens etc. Fast food is just a common example.
Then it seems like a bad business model to build an economy off of slave labor like wages. I'm not saying that everyone should live in a McMansion, but if you want people to work - you need to give them a reason to show up.
Posted on 4/3/22 at 9:11 pm to Ricardo
There are plenty of people who work that don't fully support themselves. Maybe it's a 2nd income for a family, a younger person who still lives with their parents, a retired person just looking for something to do etc.
I'm not not sure where we got this notion that every employed American is the primary breadwinner for a family.
I'm not not sure where we got this notion that every employed American is the primary breadwinner for a family.
Posted on 4/3/22 at 9:15 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:No, I mean society.
You mean a government, right?
quote:But society is about that. Otherwise unrest is inevitable.
The economy isn't about supporting all citizens above some arbitrary (and constantly moving) line you value.
quote:So as long as there are people in the world worse off, there is no problem?
If your argument had real merit, we wouldn't be facing the aforementioned illegal immigration, especially at the insane rate that we do.
quote:I'm asking why you think that an economy which exists purely to serve the society which participates in it should not be molded to suit the needs of the society.
What are you talking about?
Posted on 4/3/22 at 9:20 pm to White Bear
quote:
me and another baw at least.
You show signs of genius!
or that you are old.
Posted on 4/3/22 at 9:21 pm to fallguy_1978
quote:I agree with this but it doesn’t really jive with the “get out and make it on your own at 18/19/20” mindset so many Americans have
not not sure where we got this notion that every employed American is the primary breadwinner for a family.
Posted on 4/3/22 at 9:21 pm to doya2
quote:
What are people living on?
I'm retired and living off my investments.
Posted on 4/3/22 at 9:22 pm to Ricardo
quote:
Then it seems like a bad business model to build an economy off of slave labor like wages
That’s a stupid hyperbole but I’m going to address it because it is used so often especially in this context.
Slave labor wages means you work every day for literally nothing and every single bit of work you do goes unappreciated and uncompensated and I get to beat you senseless and starve you until you die and I also get to rape your wife and daughters and torture your children as you all starve to death slowly in disease infested conditions unfit for any living organism. And you have no recourse and no hope and no options and if you complain about it I kill you. Think about each of those actions.
That’s what slave wages are.
Low wage jobs in America mean you get a house and medical treatment and food and the freedom to decide how to improve your situation or use what little wealth you’re able to accumulate as well as the ability to change jobs and the government protection against indentured servitude or slave labor and a safety net for any life threatening situations should you need it.
This post was edited on 4/3/22 at 9:27 pm
Posted on 4/3/22 at 9:23 pm to GreatLakesTiger24
quote:
I agree with this but it doesn’t really jive with the “get out and make it on your own at 18/19/20” mindset so many Americans have
I wonder what percentage of young people 18-20 are completely independent? It's probably pretty low outside of people who joined the military right out of HS
Posted on 4/3/22 at 9:24 pm to doya2
reds, vitamin C and cocaine
Posted on 4/3/22 at 9:27 pm to Nguyener
quote:quote:That’s a stupid hyperbole
Then it seems like a bad business model to build an economy off of slave labor like wages
quote:
Slave labor wages means you work every day for literally nothing and every single bit of work you do goes unappreciated and uncompensated and I get to beat you senseless and starve you until you die and I also get to rape your wife and daughters and torture your children as you all starve to death slowly in disease infested conditions unfit for any living organism. And you have no recourse and no hope and no options and if you complain about it I kill you. Think about each of those actions.
That’s what slave wages are.
Posted on 4/3/22 at 9:31 pm to fallguy_1978
Automation is going to kill off a ton of jobs. I work with a guy who took an IT job with a manufacturing company. Basically, his job was to code a web-based reporting system for inventory, sales, and finance of this particular company.
We discussed last week, when he started there were a dozen people in IT. It took him about a year into the job before he figured out that the code he was writing was replacing the people around him. They had been writing custom reports and programs that their ERP system could do in seconds. When he left it was down to him and two others, the CIO and a single database guy. They system still runs automagically, and instead of the manufacturing company replacing him they just hired a network admin guy to play tech support.
We discussed last week, when he started there were a dozen people in IT. It took him about a year into the job before he figured out that the code he was writing was replacing the people around him. They had been writing custom reports and programs that their ERP system could do in seconds. When he left it was down to him and two others, the CIO and a single database guy. They system still runs automagically, and instead of the manufacturing company replacing him they just hired a network admin guy to play tech support.
Posted on 4/3/22 at 9:32 pm to fallguy_1978
quote:
I wonder what percentage of young people 18-20 are completely independent?
It's definitely not the same as it was 30 years ago. Starting salary for a welder is about the same today as it was back then. That's not really a good way to incentivize someone to join the work force.
Posted on 4/3/22 at 9:35 pm to Breauxsif
quote:
Automation is going to kill off a ton of jobs
I agree that it will eventually happen. I'm probably about old enough where it won't impact me too much but I do wonder what employment/life will be like for my kids in 30 years.
Posted on 4/3/22 at 9:36 pm to Ricardo
From my understanding of job searching for the past 6 months, people would rather hire younger people and take the risk at a lower wage than hire someone with some experience and accomplishments that doesent exactly want the walk in wage.
Frickers will lie through their teeth to keep from paying anyone a little more with experience. But in the end, they get exactly what they paid for.
Frickers will lie through their teeth to keep from paying anyone a little more with experience. But in the end, they get exactly what they paid for.
This post was edited on 4/3/22 at 9:38 pm
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