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Started By
Message
re: Should churches be taxed?
Posted on 5/16/23 at 10:26 am to CleverUserName
Posted on 5/16/23 at 10:26 am to CleverUserName
quote:
quote:
Can't squeeze out the smaller churches, but we sure need to tax these giants that are running as a business first and foremost then as a place of worship.
Can’t. That’s illegal. Equal protection clause. And establishment clause if the denominations are different.
You can tax at different rates by itemization classification and revenue tiers.
1
Posted on 5/16/23 at 10:28 am to TCO
quote:
A housing allowance can be excluded from a ministers personal tax return.
False
It can lower his income tax burden, but he still pays self employment taxes on the amount of the housing allowance.
Example
Pay Package of 60k, 18k designated as housing allowance
Pastor pays income tax on 48k
Pays self employment tax (15%) on 60k.
When it all comes together a clergy typically owed 25% of their wages in taxes before deductions.
Same married person in a normal job pays 18.5% thanks to the employer paying 1/2 their FICA.
This post was edited on 5/16/23 at 10:34 am
Posted on 5/16/23 at 10:30 am to AggieHank86
quote:
I think you have that backwards. When they are SUBSIDIZED by the government (tax exemption), THEN they are an arm of the government. It is a major justification FOR the exemption (see above).
Eh
I've never found this semantic argument very persuasive.
Posted on 5/16/23 at 10:37 am to Pettifogger
For every large megachurch there are dozens of small congregation neighborhood churches with pastors who need a full time job on the side to survive. These churches provide vital functions in their neighborhoods. Taxing them would close them down.
Posted on 5/16/23 at 10:41 am to Pettifogger
Should legal settlements be taxed if over a hundred thousand dollars. It's kinda free money like winning the lottery. Should lawyers pay income tax on class action suits when the lawyer take is greater than the sum of the class distribution.
its just equity
Posted on 5/16/23 at 10:41 am to AggieHank86
quote:
Distinction without a difference, IMO.
Worthless.
Posted on 5/16/23 at 10:43 am to AggieHank86
quote:
No offense.
When a church is taxed, it becomes incentivized to do what the govt wants of them to minimize that taxing.
Government involvement with churches is not a separation of church and state. It's tying them together.
Posted on 5/16/23 at 10:43 am to Adajax
quote:
For every large megachurch there are dozens of small congregation neighborhood churches with pastors who need a full time job on the side to survive. These churches provide vital functions in their neighborhoods. Taxing them would close them down.
It basically comes down to a similar context to the gun debate. While I don't like what I see with the mega church private jet crowd, I understand that the vast majority of churches are not that way and I don't want to give the government the authority to stick their nose in something they don't have a right to stick their nose in. So to a degree, I must accept that some will take advantage in a negative way if it means the vast majority don't get hosed by the government. Like I stated earlier, once you let the government in the hen house so to speak, you can't get them back out again.
Posted on 5/16/23 at 10:44 am to Adajax
quote:
there are dozens of small congregation neighborhood churches with pastors who need a full time job on the side to survive
Yep, I have a daughter and her husband who have a church. He works full time outside of the ministry.
Govt taxing donations seems like a fairly authoritarian thing to do.
Most people are too stupid to get past their own beliefs on religion when it comes to this issue though.
Posted on 5/16/23 at 11:00 am to BurntOrangeMan
quote:
You can tax at different rates by itemization classification and revenue tiers.
So we bloat the government even more by adding more lifetime bureaucrats to come up with, enforce, and audit this new revenue tier system. Right? Bigger government?
And when this is in place… since churches are taxed… they are going to get a say in how their tax money is spent. Correct? In the schools? In the community? On grounds that are publicly owned?
Right?
Posted on 5/16/23 at 11:22 am to Adajax
quote:Our culture is working hard to attack Christianity right now. If a building is no longer affordable due to a higher tax burden than can be sustained, then the congregation will have to meet elsewhere. That means they will either have to rent a space or the congregation will have to meet in private homes.
Taxing them would close them down
If they rent/lease a place, that will require a landlord to agree, which may not be happen if the property owner is protested and boycotted to apply pressure not to rent/lease to the congregation. If they meet in a private home, that may not be doable based on HOA covenants or city ordinances regarding large meetings, parking restrictions, etc. (remember when there were crackdowns on large gatherings even in people's own homes during COVID?) The end result is that a church congregation will have fewer options and less freedom to operate as they see fit if they don't have their own space.
Posted on 5/16/23 at 11:31 am to FooManChoo
The fact that some folks honestly want to take money away from churches because they deem them to be dishonorable with the funds they receive just so a government body that is as stunningly corrupt as you can imagine can have that additional tax revenue is astounding.
Posted on 5/16/23 at 12:06 pm to fareplay
quote:
They run like a business but are tax exempt which causes questionable behaviors in their financials.
They do not run like a business.
Any more than an HOA or a local Lions Club or any organization that raises money from voluntary dues or donations from membership (from income which has already been taxed, by the way).
If you are o.k. with taxing every organization in America that uses that model, I still wouldn't be in favor of it but it would at least be a logically consistent position.
Posted on 5/16/23 at 12:12 pm to fareplay
I don’t wish more taxes on my worst enemy, so no.
Posted on 5/16/23 at 1:10 pm to JiminyCricket
quote:
Then what's the point of being a non-profit? What's the point of having them at all?
Indefagitable has some dumb takes that he digs in on like a tick. This is one of them.
Posted on 5/16/23 at 1:22 pm to fareplay
Only the Black Churches tell their congregation how to vote, bus to the polls, etc.
Posted on 5/16/23 at 1:23 pm to the808bass
quote:
Inde****able has some dumb takes that he digs in on like a tick. This is one of them.
I don't like tax exemptions, period. I would prefer lower taxes applied universally.
It is ok for us to disagree on things. We agree on most.
quote:
Inde****able
And you don't have to redact, the t comes before the g
This post was edited on 5/16/23 at 1:26 pm
Posted on 5/16/23 at 1:27 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Most people are too stupid to get past their own beliefs on religion when it comes to this issue though.
You'd think the A-religious zealots would just be content with the fact that there is likely not a moment in human history when religion has had less influence on overall society (especially American/Western society) than right now.
Posted on 5/16/23 at 1:32 pm to fareplay
quote:
Church and religion in general plays a big role in our politics and daily lives. They run like a business but are tax exempt which causes questionable behaviors in their financials.
If we were to tax churches, there would be more transparency of spend and we can feel better about supporting the right goals. Why not tax em
When has taxing ever been the answer?
No.... they shouldn't be taxed because the parishioners are already taxed as are the employees who work at the church.
In fact I'd say do away with all income taxes.
Posted on 5/16/23 at 1:37 pm to fareplay
13 pages but...
I think we should treat a church just like we treat a 501(c)(3) organization.
Have them file a federal tax return, allow all contributioins to be tax-deductible, and tax them only on their unrelated business income.
Just about every church already has an EIN for banking purposes. Most churches of size already file payroll tax returns.
Once that's done, then we can start looking at all non-profits (church and non-church) and figure out which of the larger ones really are more of a business than a non-profit. And then start challening their non-profit status.
In other words... Joel's Church is not a legit non-profit, but neither is the Red Cross, nor is Ochsner. Treat them all the same - as the business they are.
I think we should treat a church just like we treat a 501(c)(3) organization.
Have them file a federal tax return, allow all contributioins to be tax-deductible, and tax them only on their unrelated business income.
Just about every church already has an EIN for banking purposes. Most churches of size already file payroll tax returns.
Once that's done, then we can start looking at all non-profits (church and non-church) and figure out which of the larger ones really are more of a business than a non-profit. And then start challening their non-profit status.
In other words... Joel's Church is not a legit non-profit, but neither is the Red Cross, nor is Ochsner. Treat them all the same - as the business they are.
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