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re: So we now know where dogs came from:
Posted on 12/29/25 at 9:57 am to NC_Tigah
Posted on 12/29/25 at 9:57 am to NC_Tigah
quote:Trust me, I understand the difference between genotype and phenotype.
you misread the post you're responding to, or you don't understand it. Cross-fertility is unrelated.
This post was edited on 12/29/25 at 10:09 am
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Posted on 12/29/25 at 10:39 am to Azkiger
quote:
Wait, you're calling water levels rising over decades a flood?
Did you really read "sudden and catastrophic flooding" and type that reply??
Posted on 12/29/25 at 11:42 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:Confidence in such matters can be a fleeting thing.
Secular scholars are confident that our Genesis was written in the Persian period
The relevant question in this instance relates to composition and authorship though.
Genesis was likely passed on orally, generation to generation, for a millennia, because reading and writing capacity was limited in the perihistoric period. So in terms of when Genesis was actually "written," it was almost assuredly converted to written form long after it was conceived/composed. Possibly in written form, it was indeed composed as late as the Persian timeframe.
At the time of Moses written language was very basic, or nonexistent, amongst the Jewish population. So scholars base their modern estimates of written transcription on that, as well as linguistic cues, or events which are believed to have arisen centuries after Moses. In reality, it makes perfect sense that the later "writers" of Genesis would have incorporated such elements.
Of course, there are also aspects of the human condition, commonly discounted by "scientists" or "scholars" which, nonetheless, are unexplained in their assessments (clairvoyance, premonitions, prophecy, near-death visions, or even the paranormal). Man has always sought explanations for such things. The Bible provides explanations for them on a faith-based basis.
Posted on 12/29/25 at 12:37 pm to Flats
quote:
It's just 4 words but it says an awful lot. I doubt the phrase "rival cliques of gravity believers" would make much sense.
Exactly.
They have denominations, just like any religion.
The biggest tell tale sign to me was in the Myer video in which he discusses the "scientific" community's response to the publishing of that article. People were genuinely afraid for their safety over the publishing of an article in a scientific journal.
That's radical Islamic-level dogma protectionism, and it shows you how corrupted "science" is by their own dogmas.
quote:
The public misperception part has been true for decades.
Yes, it has. I just wasn't aware of it...the giant gap between the certainty with which even college professors will announce the settled nature of Darwinism and the reality of the situation, which is that we KNOW it fails as an explanation for life development, and we're scrambling frantically to try to figure out how to make it work (which is the pinnacle of science, right? Start with a conclusion, refuse to abandon it even when the evidence tells you to, then keep trying to figure out how to make it work as a theory no matter how futile the task.)
And like I posted above, the Miller Urey experiment is even worse. It's been debunked 8 ways from Sunday. Yet in every high school and even college biology textbook in America that is the explanation give for the beginning of life on Earth.
Fred Hoyle calculated the odds of spontaneous generation of life from non life based on what we now know about amino acids and DNA without any outside intervention, and his estimate was 1 x 10 to the 40th power.
Ask an atheist if they will grant that there is at least a 1 x 10 to the 40th chance that God exists. If they're honest, they'll say yes, since that number certainly approaches zero. Just for scale, it's been estimated and widely accepted that there are roughly 1 x 10 to the 80th power subatomic particles in the observable universe. So we're talking about odds five orders of magnitude greater than that.
I'm not saying any of that proves that God exists, but it certainly seems to prove to any reasonable person that life did not start and develop the way we've all been taught in school.
I don't say any of that because of what the Bible says or what my church teaches. I say it because that's what the lack of scientific evidence indicates.
Posted on 12/29/25 at 1:12 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Genesis was likely passed on orally, generation to generation, for a millennia, because reading and writing capacity was limited in the perihistoric period
There are some fragments and passages that are very old, perhaps to around 1000BCE. And those traditions absolutely could have been passed down orally and probably were.
There’s several things to consider here. Genesis that we have today is a composite text stitched together by an editor or redactor (maybe both or multiples of both). The verses stitched together are from many different time periods.
Imagine if someone in 2025 tried to build a composite story in English and took a word for word version of three stories and wove them together. One story from 1400CE, one from 1700, and one from 2015. One story uses words and vocabulary that aren’t spelled or pronounced anything like the 2015 words. One from 1700 that is easily understood but that sounds archaic by today’s standards, and the modern one and the Middle English version are all stitched together. You, as a modern English speaker, would be able to tell the difference. But if all that was translated into modern Spanish and given to someone in Mexico to read it, they wouldn’t be able to tell.
Paleography, morphology, syntax, grammar, and vocabulary is easy to tell by Hebrew language experts what period of time a story was originally written. Then when you add context and anachronisms that makes it even easier. That’s how Hebrew scholars know when a text was written.
So when the priestly source of the Noah tradition wrote that Noah but 14 of every “clean” animal on the ark for sacrifices… before there was ever the “law” given by “Moses” that mentioned what a “clean” animal was, we know it’s an anachronism. That, and the style, grammar, and vocabulary of the story was 5th century BCE, we know it had to be written in the Persian period. Just trying to give you an example. Some on this site think this stuff was written in a time during which there was no Hebrew language or even precursor (Canaanite) language… only the precursor to Bronze Age Canaanite language (west Semitic) would have existed but there was no writing system yet. The only writing system in the area at the time would have been Egyptian hieroglyphics.
quote:
At the time of Moses written language was very basic, or nonexistent, amongst the Jewish population
There you go. We agree, sort of. At the time the Moses character was supposed to have existed, there was no Hebrew/canaanite writing system yet. But Moses himself is a composite character. Let me explain.
When the Persians sent the Jewish aristocracy back to Jerusalem after the Babylonia exile, there was a sort of civil war for control of the property and government. Several factions of Jews from Babylon went up against each other and against the Jews who never were exiled (the lower class who stayed to farm and tend flocks). There were several factions of them too, and the Babylonian Jews began to call those Jews who were never exiled as “Canaanites” as a pejorative. All these sects vied for standing and position, and all claimed to be rightful heirs of Israel and Judah by claiming succession of “the” patriarch of their land. Solomon, David, Joshua, Saul, Moses, Abraham, Jacob… all supposedly the founder of the worshippers of Yahweh and rightful rulers. Most of those characters if not all were ahistorical, but it didn’t matter. If they existed, the stories we have about them now are all fabricated… some by their own sect and some by others.
Let me give you some examples.
Followers of David… invented stories like David defeating Goliath. Detractors of David… invented stories about him fornicating with the widows of his own soldier he had murdered.
Followers of Moses… invented the tale of him parting the reed sea. Detractors of Moses… invented the tale of him being uncircumcised and Yahweh trying to kill him.
quote:
So scholars base their modern estimates of written transcription on that, as well as linguistic cues, or events which are believed to have arisen centuries after Moses. In reality, it makes perfect sense that the later "writers" of Genesis would have incorporated such elements.
Correct
Posted on 12/29/25 at 1:20 pm to Timeoday
quote:
Noah tried to tell them. I read Noah's Flood by William Ryan and Walter Pitman when it first came out and it offered a different perspective. These two distinguished geophysicists claim a catastrophic event changed history, a gigantic flood 7,600 years ago in what is today the Black Sea.
Using sound waves and coring devices to probe the sea floor, William Ryan and Walter Pitman revealed clear evidence that this inland body of water had once been a vast freshwater lake lying hundreds of feet below the level of the world's rising oceans. Sophisticated dating techniques confirmed that 7,600 years ago the mounting seas had burst through the narrow Bosporus valley, and the salt water of the Mediterranean had poured into the lake with unimaginable force, racing over beaches and up rivers, destroying or chasing all life before it. The rim of the lake, which had served as an oasis, a Garden of Eden for farms and villages in a vast region of semi-desert, became a sea of death. The people fled, dispersing their languages, genes, and memories.
I had a geology professor in college who would occasionally make comments or give geological examples that would make you think he is an atheist, and other times he would say things that made you think he was a believer. One of the believer comments was on the Chattanooga Shale and how there is evidence that it was possibly formed by a large scale flood event.
Everyone tried to figure out his personal beliefs, but I think his point was just that people will find things to support whatever they want to support, and might even be right in their logic in doing so.
Posted on 12/29/25 at 1:36 pm to VolSquatch
The Holy Bible talks about mountains becoming islands and islands becoming mountains. Then you find fossils of sea life 4500 feet above sea level in various mountain ranges globally.
I remember discussing the gravitational pull of the galaxy once our solar system emerges on the other side of our galactic plane. Even God asked Job to unleash the chains of Orion.
How did God know?now?
I remember discussing the gravitational pull of the galaxy once our solar system emerges on the other side of our galactic plane. Even God asked Job to unleash the chains of Orion.
How did God know?now?
This post was edited on 12/29/25 at 1:59 pm
Posted on 12/29/25 at 1:40 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
the certainty with which even college professors will announce the settled nature of Darwinism and the reality of the situation
We know that biological evolution of species is real and we know how it works better than electromagnetism and gravity. The use of the term “Darwinism” is a red flag of biblical apologetics and ignorance.
quote:
we KNOW it fails as an explanation for life development
And the theory of gravity fails at explaining evolution of species. They are separate things. There could be no god, a god, your specific god, or many sky daddies, and it wouldn’t change evolution one bit. There could be a god named Yahweh hurling lightning bolts and riding on the clouds and it wouldn’t change one thing about evolution. It could be a god or gods or aliens or nothing that set it in motion, that created the first life on earth, and none of that matters one bit to how evolution is best explanation as to the diversity of life on earth.
quote:
the Miller Urey experiment is even worse. It's been debunked 8 ways from Sunday. Yet in every high school and even college biology textbook in America that is the explanation give for the beginning of life on Earth.
I was in high school way after this experiment was conducted and took advanced biology and this wasn’t in our text books in Louisiana public school.
quote:
Fred Hoyle calculated the odds of spontaneous generation of life from non life based on what we now know about amino acids and DNA without any outside intervention, and his estimate was 1 x 10 to the 40th power.
I hope I explained well enough why this doesn’t matter in relation to the biological evolution of species.
quote:
Ask an atheist if they will grant that there is at least a 1 x 10 to the 40th chance that God exists
There are a lot of stubborn atheists (as with theists) so I don’t think this is true. I wouldn’t even grant that if “God” is one of the specific deities described in the Bible. But something more powerful than us that we don’t know about that could have set the universe and life in motion, sure.
quote:
I'm not saying any of that proves that God exists, but it certainly seems to prove to any reasonable person that life did not start and develop the way we've all been taught in school.
Don’t fall victim to the fallacy of “we don’t know how it happened, therefore it happened because my specific deity did it.” When arguing with that sort of flawed argument, the Muslims and Hindus have just as must “evidence” for their god doing it as you have for El Elyon, Yahweh, or Jesus.
Posted on 12/29/25 at 1:40 pm to SeeeeK
Man worships God and the animal that worships man is called a dog, which is God spelled backwards.
Who named the first dog?
Who named the first dog?
Posted on 12/29/25 at 1:50 pm to VolSquatch
quote:In fairness, prior to geologically recent continental drift, and the Alleghanian orogeny, the area that is now Chattanooga was a seafloor. So the shale was not a matter of flooding per se.
One of the believer comments was on the Chattanooga Shale and how there is evidence that it was possibly formed by a large scale flood event.
Posted on 12/29/25 at 1:52 pm to Timeoday
quote:
The Holy Bible talks about mountains becoming islands and islands becoming mountains. Then you find fossils of sea life 4500 feet above sea level in various mountain ranges globally.
You should google “plate tectonics”.
quote:
Even Job asked God to unleash the chain of Orion. How did Job know?
Perhaps you should re-read Job. It was Yahweh asking Job if Job could loosen the chain of Orion.
Answer: Only Yahweh has authority and control over the stars up there in the firmament.
P.S. Job is a fictional character, and the book about him was finalized in the Persian period but might be older than Genesis and the rest of the Torah. In Job, there is no mention of covenants, the promised land, Abraham, Moses, the “law”, Jerusalem, or the temple.
Posted on 12/29/25 at 2:00 pm to Squirrelmeister
I corrected it. Thank you.
Posted on 12/29/25 at 2:07 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:
We know that biological evolution of species is real and we know how it works better than electromagnetism and gravity. The use of the term “Darwinism” is a red flag of biblical apologetics and ignorance.
I have to laugh how so many love "some" of what Darwin wrote yet that very same bunch despise so much of what he wrote.
His take on "savages" is remarkable, don't ya think?
Posted on 12/29/25 at 2:14 pm to Timeoday
quote:
His take on "savages" is remarkable, don't ya think?
Get your copy of The Bell Curve by Herrnstein and Murray before they ban it.
Posted on 12/29/25 at 2:20 pm to Squirrelmeister
Participants in this debate either use the shite outta google or paid a whole lot more attention in school or church than I did.
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