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Started By
Message
re: Social Security is Welfare
Posted on 12/19/25 at 5:44 am to Masterag
Posted on 12/19/25 at 5:44 am to Masterag
quote:
Welfare is an unjust enrichment, social security is payment of a debt.
I disagree about your welfare characterization, but your SS one isn’t right either. If you only live a month past retirement you don’t get all the rest you paid in back, and likewise if you live 50 years past you get more back than you ever paid in.
Ultimately it is what it is, a safety net to protect the elderly poor from absolute destitution.
1
Posted on 12/19/25 at 6:32 am to TheHarahanian
quote:
I want my money.
You're pretty close to retirement age aren't you?
Posted on 12/19/25 at 6:43 am to ericberryistheman
quote:Median SDS monthly payments run ~$1800. To get those monthly payments, one contributes 6.2% of his paycheck w/ a 6.2% employer match, or ~$158K, over ~45 yrs.
your welfare characterization
---
If instead of going to the SSTF, the $158K over ~45 yrs was placed in an S&P portfolio account, at retirement it would be worth $1,475,147.79. At a 7% ROI, monthly withdrawals from that point would run $8605/mo (w/o ever touching principal).
$8605/mo is nearly 5-fold the SS ($1800/mo) amount, plus a nearly $1.5M residual principal would remain to pass on to the kids.
But the government rips that opportunity away! $1,475,147.79 and $8605/mo ripped away! In exchange, the government 'awards' the poor sot $1800/mo and calls it a "benefit."
.... and you refer to that rip off as "welfare"?
Posted on 12/19/25 at 6:46 am to ericberryistheman
I have paid into ss since I was 15 y/o (over 40 years ago).
The fact that the feds have pissed that $$$$ away does not change the amount of my "contributions" (yes, I know it's a tax). Ergo, it is a benefit I have paid for.
Welfare is a gratuitous benefit where the recipient has paid nothing for it. In fact, it is the beneficiary's necessitous circumstances that make them eligible.
The fact that the feds have pissed that $$$$ away does not change the amount of my "contributions" (yes, I know it's a tax). Ergo, it is a benefit I have paid for.
Welfare is a gratuitous benefit where the recipient has paid nothing for it. In fact, it is the beneficiary's necessitous circumstances that make them eligible.
Posted on 12/19/25 at 6:47 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
If instead of going to the SSTF, the $158K over ~45 yrs was placed in an S&P portfolio account, at retirement it would be worth $1,475,147.79. At a 7% ROI, monthly withdrawals from that point would run $8605/mo (w/o ever touching principal).
Democrats would not bass Bush, the younger's, plan to allow some part of SS to be invested into equities. They said it was risky and gambling with that money.
Posted on 12/19/25 at 6:56 am to DavidTheGnome
quote:
Ultimately it is what it is, a safety net to protect the elderly poor from absolute destitution.
Ultimately it is what it is ---
---- It is a forced loan foisted onto the public (lenders) and given to Uncle Sam (borrower) on his terms, at an ROI of his determination. Nothing more. The fact SS is marketed as a "benefit" or "retirement program" is shockingly audacious. The only thing more shocking is the fact most of the public believes the government's charade.
Posted on 12/19/25 at 7:00 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
The fact SS is marketed as a "benefit" or "retirement program" is shockingly audacious.
Is it actually marketed as a retirement program though? Or as an anti poverty measure
Posted on 12/19/25 at 7:01 am to DavidTheGnome
It is mandatory, so no “marketing “ is necessary.
Posted on 12/19/25 at 7:11 am to DavidTheGnome
quote:Irrelevant!
Is it actually marketed as a retirement program though? Or as an anti poverty measure
In reality, it is neither.
In fact, ripping off 12.4% of a blue collar wage, instead of ~3% which could be used to an identical end, is about as far from antipoverty as one could get, aside from criminality.
Posted on 12/19/25 at 7:12 am to shrevetigertom
quote:
It is mandatory, so no “marketing “ is necessary.
Posted on 12/19/25 at 7:35 am to GeorgePaton
quote:
Had the democrats left the fund alone we would have more than enough accumulated money to fund the benefits - even with the estimated 72 million Baby Boomers retiring. It was your pal Joe Biden and the crooked democrats who stole all the money in the so-called S/S Trust Fund Lock Box. I was there......I watched them steal it.
Elaborate. Details are important.
What is the evidence of a partisan “theft” of Social Security funds by Biden or any single political party?
As far as I can tell the trust funds were credited with Treasury securities over many decades of surplus, and these remain federal obligations owed back to the program. Hasn’t this been the structure of the program for all surplus years?
You seem to be suggesting they were siphoned off into some unrelated spending account in a clandestine way, and I’m wondering how you got there.
Posted on 12/19/25 at 8:24 am to Willie Stroker
quote:
As far as I can tell the trust funds were credited with Treasury securities over many decades of surplus, and these remain federal obligations owed back to the program. Hasn’t this been the structure of the program for all surplus years?
I don't know the answer to this so you do so I'll ask. Doesn't the government take real dollars from employees and send to the retirees? What happens to those real dollars? And at any time were there more dollars coming in than going out?
What happened to that surplus? Because anecdotally and perhaps in reality, any surpluses were just rolled into the general fund and spent.
I find this information difficult to find in graph form on the internet.
Posted on 12/19/25 at 8:27 am to GeorgePaton
quote:While I don't doubt any of what you are saying, the best explanation I have seen is from NC_Tigah as to they structured the system so as to make available the contributions for essentially operating expenses over the years paying the SS Trust pennies for the money they used from, Maybe he will come back and retrain us. I understand why younger folks are frustrated because it is so poorly structured. But you can't pull the rug out from under those who are going to need because the government robbed them for their 40 year work careers.
Social Security is a retirement fund financed by contributions from employees and employers. Had the democrats left the fund alone we would have more than enough accumulated money to fund the benefits - even with the estimated 72 million Baby Boomers retiring.
It was your pal Joe Biden and the crooked democrats who stole all the money in the so-called S/S Trust Fund Lock Box. I was there......I watched them steal it.
The theft made the only good democrat in Congress (Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan) so angry he pranced across the Senator floor glaring at his colleagues and blurted out,"It's official, we're stealing from the American People".
Stop with the b/s calling S/S........welfare.
Posted on 12/19/25 at 8:34 am to aTmTexas Dillo
quote:No.
Doesn't the government take real dollars from employees and send to the retirees?
The government takes real dollars from employees, converts them to a debt instrument recorded as an IOU in the SSTF, then spends the money, every dime of it, on whatever the government wants to spend it on.
The SSTF remains in surplus, but over the next 10yrs SS drawdowns will finally deplete it. SS tax money coming in could fund SS at an 80% rate in perpetuity.
Posted on 12/19/25 at 8:52 am to ericberryistheman
You guys shouldn't have laughed at Al Gore and his locked box.
Posted on 12/19/25 at 9:05 am to aTmTexas Dillo
quote:
Doesn't the government take real dollars from employees and send to the retirees? What happens to those real dollars? And at any time were there more dollars coming in than going out? What happened to that surplus? Because anecdotally and perhaps in reality, any surpluses were just rolled into the general fund and spent.
Yes. Real dollars get taken from workers and sent to retirees.
From the early 80s through 2019, collections from payroll taxes exceeded benefits. That was the strategy to fund the boomers.
By law, excess funds were invested in treasury bonds.
The treasury used the cash for general government spending per both parties across many Presidencies.
Posted on 12/19/25 at 9:45 am to Willie Stroker
quote:Perhaps a distinction without a difference, but technically real dollars are never taken from workers and sent directly to retirees.
Yes. Real dollars get taken from workers and sent to retirees.
SS contributions are transmitted to the U.S. Treasury’s General Fund.
Then the Treasury immediately credits the SSTF with an equivalent amount in the form of Treasury debt instruments backed by the "full faith and credit" of the U.S. government.
Even if the money is intended to be paid out as benefits the very same day, it technically "touches" the Trust Fund as a security first.
This post was edited on 12/19/25 at 9:45 am
Posted on 12/19/25 at 9:53 am to ericberryistheman
Yes, retard, paying my own money into a system that I am told will pay me back is "welfare". Not to mention I am FORCED to do it.
A welfare recipient pays nothing and gets something. I am also FORCED to pay for that.
Progressives are retards.
A welfare recipient pays nothing and gets something. I am also FORCED to pay for that.
Progressives are retards.
Posted on 12/19/25 at 2:13 pm to Willie Stroker
"and these remain federal obligations owed back to the program"
You mean those worthless IOU's sitting in the U.S.Treasury? Where you gonna get the money to pay those IOU's?
Let me school you on how we got to this pending Social Security Funding Crisis. Remember I was there, I watched on television as Joe Biden and the U.S.Congress voted on this theft.
Back in the 80's (might have been 1985ish) Congress debated the pending Social Security funding crisis. Given the decline in worker-to-retiree ratio, something had to be done. So they decided on a plan. The Plan - raise Social Security Taxes - 6.1% for the employee matched by the 6.1% by the employer. The combination 12.2% contributions created a tidy sum for the employee. All of it flowing into the Social Security Lock Box. So the interest bearing (the magic of compounding interest) S/S monies in the S/S Lock Box, plus future contributions would grow the fund enough to cover the benefits in anticipation of the additional 72 million retiring baby boomers. Great, we have a solution to the funding crisis.
But then your pal Joe Biden and the democrat thieves played the "old bait-and-switch" routine. Instead of leaving the money in the "Social Security Lock Box" they simply voted to essentially pull the S/S monies into the general fund, treating the S/S monies as just another income tax stream. Then the clock started ticking....tic, toc, tic, toc, tic toc.
There were other proposals to "Fix Social Security". Among them was GWB II's proposal to create fully funded IRA Accounts for each and every American. I recall the cost was around $1.3 trillion dollars. Not an impossible amount at the time for this government to handle. But then along comes this T.A.R.P debacle. A TARP plan triggered by the threat of massive bank collapse created by your pal.......(wait for it).........Bill Clinton. Care to guess how much the cost of that TARP bank funding plan grew to?
So where did the money come from to fund TARP? If you guessed that massive sink hole we call the U.S.Treasury, you're right. And what monies is included in that massive sink hole we call the U.S.Treasury? *[cricketts]*
Yep, Joe Biden and the democrats (and I suspect some UniParty/RINO's) stole the Social Security Trust Fund.
That's why Senator Moynihan (D-NY) went ballistic. He could see a bait-and-switch routine when he saw one.
Elections have consequences.
You mean those worthless IOU's sitting in the U.S.Treasury? Where you gonna get the money to pay those IOU's?
Let me school you on how we got to this pending Social Security Funding Crisis. Remember I was there, I watched on television as Joe Biden and the U.S.Congress voted on this theft.
Back in the 80's (might have been 1985ish) Congress debated the pending Social Security funding crisis. Given the decline in worker-to-retiree ratio, something had to be done. So they decided on a plan. The Plan - raise Social Security Taxes - 6.1% for the employee matched by the 6.1% by the employer. The combination 12.2% contributions created a tidy sum for the employee. All of it flowing into the Social Security Lock Box. So the interest bearing (the magic of compounding interest) S/S monies in the S/S Lock Box, plus future contributions would grow the fund enough to cover the benefits in anticipation of the additional 72 million retiring baby boomers. Great, we have a solution to the funding crisis.
But then your pal Joe Biden and the democrat thieves played the "old bait-and-switch" routine. Instead of leaving the money in the "Social Security Lock Box" they simply voted to essentially pull the S/S monies into the general fund, treating the S/S monies as just another income tax stream. Then the clock started ticking....tic, toc, tic, toc, tic toc.
There were other proposals to "Fix Social Security". Among them was GWB II's proposal to create fully funded IRA Accounts for each and every American. I recall the cost was around $1.3 trillion dollars. Not an impossible amount at the time for this government to handle. But then along comes this T.A.R.P debacle. A TARP plan triggered by the threat of massive bank collapse created by your pal.......(wait for it).........Bill Clinton. Care to guess how much the cost of that TARP bank funding plan grew to?
So where did the money come from to fund TARP? If you guessed that massive sink hole we call the U.S.Treasury, you're right. And what monies is included in that massive sink hole we call the U.S.Treasury? *[cricketts]*
Yep, Joe Biden and the democrats (and I suspect some UniParty/RINO's) stole the Social Security Trust Fund.
That's why Senator Moynihan (D-NY) went ballistic. He could see a bait-and-switch routine when he saw one.
Elections have consequences.
This post was edited on 12/19/25 at 3:00 pm
Posted on 12/19/25 at 6:19 pm to GeorgePaton
quote:Not exactly worthless. In fact, because of the SSTF structure, among all US 'entitlements,' they are among the most Constitutionally obligated on the books.
You mean those worthless IOU's sitting in the U.S.Treasury?
quote:Please don't.
Let me school you on how we got to this pending Social Security Funding Crisis
You seem very interested in the topic, but don't seem to understand SS foundationally. You appear to regard SS as a benefit pool which was recently raided.
In reality, SS was raided from its inception in the mid-1930's. That was its design!
In reality, though it was marketed as a wonderful retirement security program, that was all smoke and mirrors. In fact, SS was never an intended benefit for anyone except Uncle Sam. Not once, ever in the history of the program, was there a pool of SS money sitting around for retirees.
SS contributions were always and universally converted to IOU's, and then immediately spent, often on something completely unrelated to SS. Raising money for general government spending was SS's sole design from day #1
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