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re: Some thoughts on IQ
Posted on 7/30/25 at 7:06 am to Drizzt
Posted on 7/30/25 at 7:06 am to Drizzt
quote:
I teach in a college and do IQ research. I regularly see students with 80 IQs. They are usually in general studies, education, or exercise science. They never would have gotten into college 30 years ago but now we push them through at most public universities or small liberal arts colleges trying to not go bankrupt.
I tested someone a few years ago when he was in high school. He scored in the mid 80s. He is struggling mightily at a local university. I suspect that with better study skills and support he could graduate. Of course this is just anecdotal.
This post was edited on 7/30/25 at 7:12 am
1
Posted on 7/30/25 at 7:11 am to Narax
quote:
The main reason though I push back on the common idea around here (not by you) that IQ is genetic, is that:
As you probably know, it’s a complex interaction, including genetics, environment, biology, culture, etc. Genetics absolutely play an importantrole but certainly so do other factors.
Posted on 7/30/25 at 7:38 am to LSUTANGERINE
I see those cases all the time too. I always think what are they going to do with a degree? They don’t have the skills to be management or do well independently in any competitive position. We are doing them a disservice taking their money. They should get an LPN, CDL, or work in the trades as a plumber or other trade. You can make 90,000 a year with your a TWIC card on a dock. The idea that everyone should go to college and get pushed through is ridiculous.
Posted on 7/30/25 at 7:41 am to anc
70 is the cutoff for intellectual disability. 70 to 85 is considered the slow learner range.
Posted on 7/30/25 at 7:44 am to Narax
quote:
Even things such as iron deficiency and then correction can bounce an IQ score 5 points
Yes, but banding rarely changes. That is, while Terman’s own longitudinal study showed high variances in early and later testing scores; there wasn't much change in the standard deviation band a person fell into, at any meaningful level for the purpose of the measurement.
An IQ score is a one-dimensional flattening of a multidimensional measurement. We could measure memory apart from logic, etc. In some situations, that would be more useful. Most IQ-adjacent tests do these things. For instance, the SAT will also measure certain knowledge and executive function to act as a predictor of success in college.
We tend to use such adjacent tests in education to make coarse measurements on how to devote our resources on gifted programs and special ed programs. We can make rudimentary translations between many of these tests and results from “IQ tests” but other than qualification for high IQ societies, it is rarely meaningful to do so. In most uses, what matters is being above and below certain lines
IQ is not an absolute potentiometer of the brain. Indeed, its original studies were around the predictability of eminent achievement. Terman’s cut off of 135 excluded two Nobel prize winners in physics. (In fact, 125 is sometimes considered the cut-off as it was, perhaps apocryphal, the measurement of Richard Feynman's IQ)
Once a person has had time to develop a body of work, we can measure achievement and potential achievement more directly. That is, not only can we compare what they have actually done, but we can use their past accomplishments to better predict their future achievements
This post was edited on 7/30/25 at 8:31 am
Posted on 7/30/25 at 7:48 am to LSUTANGERINE
quote:
There is evidence that it waxes and wanes.
I think this is what IQ is really doing. In times of plenty, IQ goes down. In hard times, high IQ thrives
Posted on 7/30/25 at 7:53 am to Narax
quote:
We know some things increase/Decrease IQ
Like with all things, there isn't one exclusive factor, but the genetic/biological component is clearly the largest.
The fringes upward can be manipulated with some variables.
Downward can be manipulated much greater with some variables.
I do think that the large areas with terrible IQ testing is largely in part to some cultural incompatibility with the test, especially its reliance on abstract reasoning. That's why in these areas with work you can see great gains in IQ over generations if you work at it. I don't think these people are as stupid as their IQ, they just grow up past childhood without the concepts that align with how we test IQ and can't translate what intelligence they do have. When you see some random country in Africa with an average 70 IQ, the absurdity on its face is pretty clear to anyone who understands what a 70 IQ actually is (and, again, that's the average).
Posted on 7/30/25 at 8:21 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
The fringes upward can be manipulated with some variables.
Downward can be manipulated much greater with some variables.
I tend to agree. In SOME ways it’s similar almost to top running speed beginning in young adulthood. One can gradually and only slightly increase their running speed due to some factors like training, nutrition, etc. But there area host of variables that can significantly decrease one’s top running speed. Lack of training, age, injury, etc..
As a whole, you’re not going to see many statistically significant increases in IQ scores roughly after age 10.
You won’t see a lot of significant decreases, but there will absolutely be more after age 10. Dementia, some chronic and severe mental illnesses, Neurodegenerative diseases, vascular issues, etc can all play a role in significant decreases in IQ
Posted on 7/30/25 at 8:44 am to llfshoals
quote:
They aren’t trying to push kids to grow, they’re trying to dumb them all down to the same level.
Going to school is not expected to raise your IQ & physically cannot lower your IQ.
If you earnestly believe Harris has an 82 IQ, the 82 IQ might be in the room with you.
Posted on 7/30/25 at 8:47 am to Narax
quote:
Even things such as iron deficiency and then correction can bounce an IQ score 5 points.
This is my biggest complaint about forcing public school kids to take the state test and then blaming teachers if the kids don't do great.
Posted on 7/30/25 at 8:49 am to 4cubbies
Smart people understand its largely the parents and culture in which the parents raise the children, not the teachers.
Posted on 7/30/25 at 8:56 am to Narax
quote:
Even things such as iron deficiency and then correction can bounce an IQ score 5 points
Iodine supplementation before birth has shown to have a 10-12 point increase in IQ. Maternal, prenatal and early childhood nutrition is extremely important for proper development.
Posted on 7/30/25 at 9:07 am to dukkbill
quote:
dukkbill
Do you think IQ is a useful measurement in modern times?
Posted on 7/30/25 at 9:09 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
Iodine supplementation before birth has shown to have a 10-12 point increase in IQ. Maternal, prenatal and early childhood nutrition is extremely important for proper development.
Maternal choline consumption during the second and third trimesters yields a measurably higher IQ for those babies throughout their whole lives.
Posted on 7/30/25 at 9:09 am to SlowFlowPro
yeah, but this is America.
Posted on 7/30/25 at 9:10 am to Padme
quote:
What does that say about the people that vote them in?
Why I’ve always said you should have to pass a basic intelligence test in order to vote.
If you can’t tell me who the 1st, 3rd, and 16th presidents were, you shouldn’t be allowed to vote for the next one.
Posted on 7/30/25 at 9:11 am to 4cubbies
quote:
This is my biggest complaint about forcing public school kids to take the state test and then blaming teachers if the kids don't do great.
Does your state test try to directly measure IQ? There may be some coarse adjustment, but most of the Bush-type tests measure functional knowledge in certain core subjects.
Nevertheless, across the entire population of students. Not every one of them has an iron deficiency on test day. Indeed, it's more likely that the quantity of iron-deficient students will be pretty close to the number of students with lower potentiality measurements who work their butt off for the test. That's why achievement is both a different and useful measure than some potentiality measurement. Over large numbers, the test CAN have meaning.
The measurements can be misapplied. For instance, it's likely not meaningful to compare a public school in an impoverished area to a highly selective private school that uses potentiality as a criterion for admission. That is not what you've seen in the studies I've seen posted to this forum. They have used matched population sets. We have taken groups of students who migrated from one school to another and measured the increase or decrease in achievement on various achievement criteria (e.g., college and graduate school matriculation). Those studies largely isolate the potentiality variable. While it is still multivariate, you can get better measures of the educational effectiveness of the program. To that extent, administrators are where these measurements provide the most incite because they are the hiring authority for the teachers.
Posted on 7/30/25 at 9:12 am to 4cubbies
quote:Lest we not be too unburdened by the past ...
I hate to pull an “aCkShUaLLy” but women’s suffrage came about because black men wanted suffrage. They knew they’d never be allowed to vote if white women couldn't.
15th Amendment (1870): Granted Black men the right to vote (at least in theory).
19th Amendment (1920): Granted women the right to vote.
Were it not for that 1/2 century gap, you might have a point.
Posted on 7/30/25 at 9:14 am to 4cubbies
quote:No!
Do you think IQ is a useful measurement in modern times?
Posted on 7/30/25 at 9:15 am to dukkbill
quote:
Nevertheless, across the entire population of students. Not every one of them has an iron deficiency on test day.
True, but some students didn't sleep well (and we know how sleep deprivation impacts cognition), or maybe didn't eat breakfast that morning, or got in a fight with someone at home and went to school upset, etc. etc. There are countless variables that could negatively impact a child's ability to score well on the state test that have nothing do with aptitude or knowledge retention.
quote:
administrators are where these measurements provide the most incite because they are the hiring authority for the teachers.
Funding is tied to hgiher state test scores, as well.
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