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re: Why isn't the Trinity mentioned in the bible?
Posted on 11/28/22 at 7:44 pm to L.A.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 7:44 pm to L.A.
quote:That certainly makes more sense than Yul Brenner chasing 100,000 proto-Jews through a dried-up Red Sea, only to be crushed by a sudden tidal wave.
One possible true story is that a small group of Midianites actually WERE slaves in Egypt and escaped to Canaan. They arrived with their stories of slavery and escape, which may have been the origin of the exodus story
0
Posted on 11/28/22 at 7:49 pm to Mo Jeaux
quote:
Well, based on history, the concept in fact isn't the only viable option.
Dead wrong here…if one believes the Bible in total, Old and New Testaments…there is literally no other way to view the relationship between God the Father, Jesus(God the Son), and the Holy Spirit. This would be setting aside all direct references as well. Jesus outright claimed to be God…John 8:58, which is what sent the Jewish religious leaders nuts, running and ripping their clothes as Jesus claimed to be “I AM”. He also directly said he would resurrect himself . He called the Temple HIS house when he tossed out the money changers/gamblers. He claimed attributes exclusively of God Almighty.
The Tri-une Godhead reference is unavoidable in scripture…bottom line.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 7:51 pm to AggieHank86
This post has been marked unreadable!
Posted on 11/28/22 at 8:00 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
But do you not consider Zoroastrianism to be a truly-monotheistic religion? If so, and if post-Exile Judaism is a direct child of Zoroastrianism, why would it "regress" from Zoroastrian monotheism to a form of monolatrism?
Cyrus of Persia took over Babylon and declared himself the rightful heir of Babylon and all its possessions, including Judah. Cyrus wanted to rule the whole world in relative peace and prosperity. He was sending the Judean nobility exiles back to Judah (along with other Babylonian slave groups) and sent with them the new form of religion - second temple Judaism. In order to curry favor with the Judeans, and to have them accept the new religion based on Cyrus being the Messiah and prohibiting Judah from having a king, he financed and built the second temple structure and had to make sure the people would accept the new religion. He couldn’t just wipe out all their gods without starting a war, so he introduced monolatry with YHWH being the most exhausted god and the only one worthy of being worshipped. That area of land bridged the gap between the other areas of his empire like Egypt. He needed stability in that region above all else.
Also Zoroastrianism is not monotheism. They have Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu. I don’t think there is such a thing as monotheism to be honest. All religions have multiple gods and spirits, angels, demons, saints, Mary, the Devil/Satan, etc. if they live in the sky, accept prayers, and interact with other sky spirits and humans, and have supernatural powers, they are gods in my book. YHWH is less powerful than El Elyon, and Archangel Michael is less powerful than YHWH, they fit the definition of a supernatural deity in the sky despite whether or not people want to label them as “gods” or “God”.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 8:01 pm to Crimson1st
quote:In Matthew, sort of.
He called the Temple HIS house when he tossed out the money changers/gamblers.
You don’t see a lot of quotation marks in the Bible. The passage should probably (using modern punctuation) read as follows.
quote:In the inner quote, he was quoting God, as recorded in Isaiah 56:7. John fails to quote the old testament verbatim, but probably gets closer to the spirit when he records the exchange as “Take these things hence; make not my Father's house (a) house of merchandise.”
(He) said unto them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called the house of prayer;’ but ye have made it a den of thieves.”
In the vernacular, he is basically saying “Take this stuff out of here. My father’s Temple was not intended to be a swap meet.”
This post was edited on 11/28/22 at 8:38 pm
Posted on 11/28/22 at 8:01 pm to Crimson1st
quote:angry little fellow
Crimson1st
It is a shame you got censored. It would’ve been interesting to see what it was about Arianism that got you so rilled up.
This post was edited on 11/29/22 at 9:48 am
Posted on 11/28/22 at 8:09 pm to FlexDawg
@flexdawg then from this point of view address my scriptural questions on page 9.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 8:11 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
At a minimum, they were willing to accept monolatrism at the insistence of the Romans. At least in OUR timeline, I am pretty certain that the Jews were firmly monotheistic by Jesus' time.
Of course you know there were different sects that all claimed to have the truth. I agree that second temple Jews by Jesus’ time denied the existence of other gods (despite them existing in their scriptures).
One sect that denied the authority of the second temple were adherents of the first temple theology that had begun to morph over time. They believed in El Elyon and his wife Asherah and their son YHWH - father, holy spiritual, and son. They believed YHWH put on a body of flesh and was sacrificed (to varying degrees… from non canonical Ascension of Isaiah, to Paul’s writings, to John, and the non canonical gospels of Philip and Thomas etc).
Posted on 11/28/22 at 8:14 pm to Crimson1st
quote:
Dead wrong here…if one believes the Bible in total, Old and New Testaments…there is literally no other way to view the relationship between God the Father, Jesus(God the Son), and the Holy Spirit.
OK, but the fact remains that alternative views were held throughout history. It's fine that you disagree based on your faith, but you can't say that your view is the only viable view.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 8:22 pm to AggieHank86
Wow 12 pages of early Babylon history leading to Christianity and not one mention of the Code of Hammurabi
Read the SHACK and find out that God presented as Aunt Jemyma. If he can do that , presenting as the trinity is easy.
As a history/science guy there is one constant that assures me there is more to life than the present. Look at the stars and the concept of infinity. Astrology sez 14 billion years ago the universe began based on light/distance calculations. Then turn around and look at the opposite direction. Is it 14 billion years in that direction also? total 28 or just don't know. Infinity is real!!!
Posted on 11/28/22 at 8:22 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
You could say that it is “more developed,” or you could say that it is further afield from anything that Jesus ever actually did or actually taught. Who knows?
read St. Ignatius New Testament Study bible. Does a really good job with footnotes connecting everything.
This is not to say I dont believe your historical viewpoint...I took classes in college that align with your beliefs. Some of those historical hypotheses are very believable.
one thing I will say for sure is that mark was written first. matthew and Luke shared mark as a source with different audiences in mind...and John is very different from the synoptics.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 8:29 pm to gaetti15
Posted on 11/28/22 at 8:36 pm to AggieHank86
the other thing I remember with respect to the gospels is this. (to add to this discussion)
Mark was written with the Romans in mind.
Matthew with the Hebrews in mind
Luke with the Gentiles in mind.
Mark was written with the Romans in mind.
Matthew with the Hebrews in mind
Luke with the Gentiles in mind.
This post was edited on 11/28/22 at 8:37 pm
Posted on 11/28/22 at 8:45 pm to ruffleforeskin
quote:
Why isn't the Trinity mentioned in the bible?
Quit looking for an English word in a book written in Greek.
This among many gotchas utilizing words and verbiage.
They completely lack the framing of the time and language the Bible was written in.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 8:46 pm to ruffleforeskin
Catholic Answers - “Is the Trinity explicit in Scriptures?”
The above is an 8 minute YouTube video from the radio show, Catholic Anwers. The theologians/apologists are Jimmy Akin and Patrick Coffin
The above is an 8 minute YouTube video from the radio show, Catholic Anwers. The theologians/apologists are Jimmy Akin and Patrick Coffin
Posted on 11/28/22 at 8:55 pm to Trevaylin
quote:
As a history/science guy there is one constant that assures me there is more to life than the present. Look at the stars and the concept of infinity.
Examine the Kalam or Aquinas First Cause logic arguments. Here is a short and concise 9 minute summary of the Kalam argument.
LINK
This post was edited on 11/28/22 at 8:56 pm
Posted on 11/28/22 at 8:57 pm to NewbombII
quote:
flexdawg then from this point of view address my scriptural questions on page 9.
There is a simple way to explain it.
You are a father
You are also a son
You have a spirit
And you are one being correct?
The one true God is also those things. The difference is that he is the divine creator of the universe and he can function as all three parts separate from one another. We obviously cannot do that.
LINK“The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten” (The Athanasian Creed, verse 22). According to the Bible, and to the ancient creeds of Christianity, the Son of God is eternal. There was never a time when He did not exist. God did not create Jesus.
John 1:1–3 says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.” This passage echoes the phrasing of Genesis 1:1, but it reveals more about the God who created everything. The Word in this verse refers to the Son of God before He took on human flesh and came to earth. Colossians 2:9 says, “In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.” So the Son, later to be called Jesus, already existed in the form of God, a member of the triune Godhead. He was not created because God was not created.
Philippians 2:6–8 describes what took place when Jesus came to earth:
“Being in very nature God,
[he] did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!”
When the Son came to earth, He took on human nature and a human body. His body was “prepared” for Him, in order for the perfect sacrifice to be offered for sin (Hebrews 10:5). The Holy Spirit overshadowed a virgin, and she conceived (Luke 1:26–38). Jesus was then born into the world. As a part of humbling Himself, Jesus set aside His rights and privileges as God and took on the limitations and weaknesses of a baby. The pre-existent Christ was not created at the Incarnation, and His divine nature remained intact; the change, at that particular point in human history, was that the eternal Son of God took on human flesh. He had already existed as God, but He humbled Himself in order to become a man. From that point on, the uncreated Son is both truly God and truly man.
Jesus had to be fully human in order to bear the penalty for our sins (2 Corinthians 5:21). He lived the life we live, yet without sin (Hebrews 4:15). He lived in complete harmony with His heavenly Father (John 8:29) and in complete dependence upon the Holy Spirit (Luke 4:14; John 14:10). No created being could have borne the weight of the world’s sins. All sacrificial animals used before Christ were merely symbols of the coming Lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world (John 1:29). Only God Himself could meet the requirements for an acceptable substitute, and Jesus is God. Those who have faith in Him are guaranteed eternal life (John 3:16–18; 6:37; 10:28).
LINKTake for example the words of Jesus in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason: “You, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33, emphasis added). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one,” He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!” This is a reference back to Exodus 3:14 when God revealed Himself as the “I AM.” The Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded (Leviticus 24:16).
Is Jesus God? — His followers declared Him to be God.
John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “The Word [Jesus] was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with His own blood.” Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God.
Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as God, indicating that Jesus is indeed God.
In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. Beyond these, there are many other passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus being God.
Is Jesus God? — The reason Jesus must be God.
The most important reason that Jesus must be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.
Is Jesus God? Yes. Jesus declared Himself to be God. His followers believed Him to be God. The provision of salvation only works if Jesus is God. Jesus is God incarnate, the eternal Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:8; 22:13), and God our Savior (2 Peter 1:1).
Posted on 11/28/22 at 9:04 pm to Lynxrufus2012
quote:
Like water, ice and vapor are three forms of H2O.
That’s Modalism and was condemned as heresy. Here’s a great yt video about bad Trinity analogies: LINK
Posted on 11/28/22 at 9:06 pm to ruffleforeskin
quote:
Jesus being worshiped as God (in the way we think about today) was a development that came about much later after Jesus's death.
You’re either a troll or a fricking idiot.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 9:10 pm to FlexDawg
quote:
There is a simple way to explain it. You are a father You are also a son You have a spirit And you are one being correct?
More Modalism. Come on now y’all, think about what you’re saying about God. The Trinity is not God taking on different roles, He is 3 distinct persons.
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