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re: Running experts- help
Posted on 1/5/24 at 3:31 pm to RandySavage
Posted on 1/5/24 at 3:31 pm to RandySavage
Lots of good advice in this thread. My 5k time last Winter was around 24 - 25 minutes (just looked it up, 26:11 actually). I worked on almost specifically zone 2 training until September with MAYBE 2 sessions in 9 months of anything much faster than zone 2 (I tried to keep my heart rate under 150 almost exclusively for 9 months). I did a Marathon (in April) during that time and I really REALLY hilly 8 miler (in July) during that time as just kinda a "fitness check" but stuck with it.
By the time I started "training" for my 2nd Marathon in early October I think my 5k time was estimated to be around a 21:30 (which was probably pretty close to correct). So like 4 minutes faster without even really "pushing" myself that much.
Once I had my fitness in a decent place I was able to follow a training plan that pushed my body to it's limits, but even then my 5k time in 2 months only came down 1 minute.
So all of this to say - the zone two, running longer and slower actually did more for my 5k time than the "fast interval" stuff. (for reference I do 1 interval session a week now because I've hit a point in my training where I have to, as someone that is just starting off it's less important for you)
By the time I started "training" for my 2nd Marathon in early October I think my 5k time was estimated to be around a 21:30 (which was probably pretty close to correct). So like 4 minutes faster without even really "pushing" myself that much.
Once I had my fitness in a decent place I was able to follow a training plan that pushed my body to it's limits, but even then my 5k time in 2 months only came down 1 minute.
So all of this to say - the zone two, running longer and slower actually did more for my 5k time than the "fast interval" stuff. (for reference I do 1 interval session a week now because I've hit a point in my training where I have to, as someone that is just starting off it's less important for you)
This post was edited on 1/5/24 at 3:34 pm
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Posted on 1/7/24 at 12:39 pm to Aubie Spr96
Just did my first two slower runs, ended up doing 3 and 4 miles at around 8 min pace. Are y'all sure this is how you lower your 5k time? It felt too easy and seems counter intuitive that running slower most of the time will make me faster
Posted on 1/7/24 at 1:02 pm to RandySavage
Yes. You should probable be running slower than 8/mile. That’s still a decently fast pace for easy miles. You should run at a level where you feel like you could carry a conversation with someone while running.
It’s absolutely the way to build speed. Simple internet search will yield plenty of professionals saying the same thing.
It’s absolutely the way to build speed. Simple internet search will yield plenty of professionals saying the same thing.
Posted on 1/8/24 at 9:34 am to RandySavage
quote:
Just did my first two slower runs, ended up doing 3 and 4 miles at around 8 min pace. Are y'all sure this is how you lower your 5k time? It felt too easy and seems counter intuitive that running slower most of the time will make me faster
Yes, trust the process, it feels weird but it works:
Leading up to Thanksgiving I did a lot of runs like this, 9:30ish pace
Long and slow.
I know a guy who has run 43 marathons at sub-4:00, basically 95% of his runs are in the 10:30 - 11:00 pace. For reference a sub-4:00 marathon is 26.2 miles at a 9:05 pace, he's never "training" at that pace, like, ever.
P.S: 8 min/mi is still too fast
This post was edited on 1/8/24 at 9:35 am
Posted on 1/8/24 at 1:06 pm to RandySavage
quote:yep. idea is that your adding miles more than pace. you should really only have 2 maybe 3 runs a week where youre running even some of it at your goal pace.
Just did my first two slower runs, ended up doing 3 and 4 miles at around 8 min pace. Are y'all sure this is how you lower your 5k time? It felt too easy and seems counter intuitive that running slower most of the time will make me faster
for example I'm starting my training cycle for the OKC marathon this week. My goal is to run under 2:40 (about 6:06 pace). Im training for sub 6:00 pace but giving myself some grace in the final result. Im planning on keeping my normal/easy days between 6:45-7:15 with an occasional 6:30 day if im feeling particularly good. ill have two days a week with an occasional long run (once every 3-4 weeks) where im really getting after it. These runs will average at maybe 6:15 total with the easy reps but the hard reps will be anywhere from 6:05 - 5:30 depending on the day. Those hard reps will account for like 20% of my miles.
If youre aiming for a 7:00 pace 5k what youre doing should put you in a good spot with having 20-30% of your mileage being at your goal pace or under here and there. Just play the long game and be patient. Also mix in 5-6 100m strides after 1 or 2 runs a week if you can. It may not seem like much but they help alot with getting good turnover.
This post was edited on 1/8/24 at 1:14 pm
Posted on 7/16/24 at 8:38 am to RandySavage
Just to piggyback on this question- I am not an avid runner, but I trained and ran a half marathon last year. Looking to pick back up in my training for the LA Half next January.
I completed the half in 2:05, and about a month before the race I did a practice half and it was also at 2:05. I was hoping adrenaline, etc would get me to 2:00 for the race.
I followed the Nike 14 week half marathon training plan to a T. My goal is to do the next half in 2 hours or less, but I felt like I trained my arse off for the last one and was still a little short of that goal.
Is it possible that 2:05 is just about all my body will do?
I completed the half in 2:05, and about a month before the race I did a practice half and it was also at 2:05. I was hoping adrenaline, etc would get me to 2:00 for the race.
I followed the Nike 14 week half marathon training plan to a T. My goal is to do the next half in 2 hours or less, but I felt like I trained my arse off for the last one and was still a little short of that goal.
Is it possible that 2:05 is just about all my body will do?
Posted on 7/16/24 at 8:52 am to slinger1317
quote:
Is it possible that 2:05 is just about all my body will do?
Shaving 5 minutes from a 2:05 is a 4% improvement. It can be done, but you're going to have to do some speedwork in addition to longer runs. Also, when was the last half marathon? Weather can be a factor. I don't like longer runs unless the weather is in the 60s. If you get hit with 75 degrees on race day, a fast pace is going to be tough.
Posted on 7/16/24 at 9:16 am to TU Rob
quote:
Shaving 5 minutes from a 2:05 is a 4% improvement. It can be done, but you're going to have to do some speedwork in addition to longer runs. Also, when was the last half marathon? Weather can be a factor. I don't like longer runs unless the weather is in the 60s. If you get hit with 75 degrees on race day, a fast pace is going to be tough.
I would take another 2:05, I just wasn't sure if it was a training issue or just a physical limitation. Probably a little bit of both I guess. I can train all I want but I will never run a 4.4 40 yd dash.
The race was perfect weather- it started in the 40's and was in the 50's by race end. A clear day and relatively flat route.
Posted on 7/16/24 at 10:44 am to slinger1317
quote:
I completed the half in 2:05, and about a month before the race I did a practice half and it was also at 2:05. I was hoping adrenaline, etc would get me to 2:00 for the race. I followed the Nike 14 week half marathon training plan to a T. My goal is to do the next half in 2 hours or less, but I felt like I trained my arse off for the last one and was still a little short of that goal. Is it possible that 2:05 is just about all my body will do?
Hard to say without knowing more about you and how you trained for the last half.
What’s your age and weight? What was your weekly mileage? Training paces? Any other races you could predict a time on like a 5k or 10k?
Posted on 7/16/24 at 11:40 am to jordan21210
your mail gain should just be to get in better shape and raise your VO2 max. That translates to better runs regardless of mileage.
Like others have said, thing outside the box and mix it up. Are you training on a treadmill with an incline? This helped me the most. I did 3.0 and 5.0 incline intervals and made big strides. It makes a normal flat road feel so much easier. Also look at a weighted vest for walks
Mix in an interval day where you're sprinting at near max pace for 30-60 seconds followed by a minute rest. do a set of 8-12 and call it a day.
You'd be surprised what you're in-shape body can do on race day, even if you haven't done that far of mileage.
I did my first half marathon a few years back and never went above 8 miles in training. I was in great shape and ran a 1:38 at 37 years old. Never followed a program, just mixed it up and built strength and endurance.
Good luck, don't overthink it.
Like others have said, thing outside the box and mix it up. Are you training on a treadmill with an incline? This helped me the most. I did 3.0 and 5.0 incline intervals and made big strides. It makes a normal flat road feel so much easier. Also look at a weighted vest for walks
Mix in an interval day where you're sprinting at near max pace for 30-60 seconds followed by a minute rest. do a set of 8-12 and call it a day.
You'd be surprised what you're in-shape body can do on race day, even if you haven't done that far of mileage.
I did my first half marathon a few years back and never went above 8 miles in training. I was in great shape and ran a 1:38 at 37 years old. Never followed a program, just mixed it up and built strength and endurance.
Good luck, don't overthink it.
Posted on 7/16/24 at 12:39 pm to dallastiger55
How much of a factor is heat? After about 2 months of training I had gotten down to 20:40 in my last 5k in February. I took about two months off due to travel and just busy. Picked it back up a month or so ago and still up around mid 23s going pretty close to all out. Granted it's mid 80s and humid as balls out. Trying to figure out if I just lost that much fitness or if the heat is taking a bigger toll than I expected.
This post was edited on 7/16/24 at 4:51 pm
Posted on 7/16/24 at 12:57 pm to RandySavage
Curious - Did you take the advice by running longer/ slower? If so, did you find it helped, as suggested?
Posted on 7/16/24 at 1:01 pm to RandySavage
Heat and humidity can be huge, I think the Runfeel strava attachment seems to give accurate estimates.
It is usually estimates 20-40 seconds per mile faster in ideal conditions.
It is usually estimates 20-40 seconds per mile faster in ideal conditions.
Posted on 7/16/24 at 4:50 pm to lsugerberbaby
quote:
Curious - Did you take the advice by running longer/ slower? If so, did you find it helped, as suggested?
I was making good progress with a mix of like 3 slower runs with a couple of tempo/speed work runs each week. Like I said, I got down to a 20:40 5k after about 6 weeks of training but then in mid-March I stopped altogether for a couple of months.
Trying to get back into it now with the goal of hopefully getting under 20:00 at least once during the next 5k winter season. I never did get my mileage up to the suggested amounts but I'm going to try and start going 6 days a week now and getting 22-24 miles a week. I just don't have the time to do much more than that.
Posted on 7/16/24 at 5:28 pm to RandySavage
I, personally, have found that the pace I'm running when I'm jogging without a purpose is different than the speed that I can hit if I want to. I would recommend just building that base mileage up to 5ish miles, and you'll be surprised how fast you can go when it's "only" three miles.
There is absolutely a mental component to running where, if you know you can do well over three miles, then you can go "harder" in those three-mile runs than even you expect. But, before that, you should be able to do five miles with relative ease.
There is absolutely a mental component to running where, if you know you can do well over three miles, then you can go "harder" in those three-mile runs than even you expect. But, before that, you should be able to do five miles with relative ease.
Posted on 7/16/24 at 6:45 pm to RandySavage
IDK how accurate this is, but I had heard awhile back that above 85 degrees (especially in this humidity) you should be expected to have at least an additional 10 BPM on your heart rate. Having to flush out more sweat from increased body temp. It's poor man's altitude training.
Posted on 7/16/24 at 8:16 pm to BilbeauTBaggins
As a dedicated HR runner, I can assure you that the heat/humidity/elevation dramatically impact your HR. Running with a HR monitor on every run has been enlightening. Example: even the smallest amount of caffeine will jack your HR. Another example: you can THINK about running fast and increase your heart rate by 10 bpm.
I prefer HR to pace for my zone 2 work. Why? Because I’m training my heart, not my legs.
I prefer HR to pace for my zone 2 work. Why? Because I’m training my heart, not my legs.
Posted on 7/16/24 at 8:43 pm to Aubie Spr96
I mean it's clear as day that more external forces on your body like high heat and humidity will impact your performance through increased body stress/heart rate. I was just pointing out that there is supposed to be somewhat of a measurement for it. I think heat affects people differently. Personally I enjoy it because I've been through it all my life. I hydrate plenty before and after so I don't stress about it as much. It also gives a solid tan.
I would much rather run below 60 degrees but I have to take what I can get.
Different strokes for different folks. I'm trying to eventually get to a sub-19 5k. I'm going to have to throttle my HR in some speed workouts.
I would much rather run below 60 degrees but I have to take what I can get.
quote:
I prefer HR to pace for my zone 2 work. Why? Because I’m training my heart, not my legs.
Different strokes for different folks. I'm trying to eventually get to a sub-19 5k. I'm going to have to throttle my HR in some speed workouts.
Posted on 7/17/24 at 5:21 am to AmIDonut
quote:
It is usually estimates 20-40 seconds per mile faster in ideal conditions.
For every 5 degrees over 60, the effect at the same effort can by anywhere from 15-30 seconds per mile
Posted on 7/17/24 at 11:23 am to LSUfan4444
Link to this info? find it hard to believe that someone would be 2 min slower if running same effort level in 80 degrees vs 60 degrees. does it work in the inverse? will i be up to 30 sec faster per mile same effort if its 55? why is 60 degrees the reference point, can't image that is ideal temp.
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